[DeTomaso] supercharger question

Fri Aug 14 10:06:27 EDT 2009

The WHipple is a twin screw and moves more air per turn and requires less force to turn from the engine per the whipple site.  It also is not suppossed to drop off boost at higher rpm like the stock Eaton does.

Once again this is on a Cobra but I suspect the same would be true for a Cleveland.  However, I have always been advised NOT to SC a Cleveland-at least not over 5 PSI and to fit it all in the engine bay and the cost involved would be prohibitive but not impossible.

When I looked at this all and talked with people that know A LOT more than me I was advised to abort the SC idea and just build a stroker if I wanted to keep the cleveland.  Less money, likely more dependable, and fits.

If you have the money to do it an EFI Cleve or Windsor would be cool and unique though.  I bet to do it right would be 15 K unless you already have most of the stuff though.

Just my opinion though.

Clay

CC: claywillmott at hotmail.com; wkooiman at earthlink.net; detomaso at realbig.com
From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
To: boyd411 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger question
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:11:20 -0500

The whipple is able to boost more without heating the air so much. No, I have never looked into why... it's just what I read.
Again... I am NOT an expert. 

My son had a 2003 Cobra that pulled over 500HP at the rear wheels on the dyno.
All he did, like Will said, was change the pulley, port the Eaton and do a tune.
THAT's impressive.

Lag with a turbocharger is based on poor design. When was the last time you drove a turbocharged car that had 'lag'.
I haven't for years... they beat that out of the design decades ago.

Here, at least, I know something.
I had a '79 Bronco with a 351M years ago and I put a Shelby Spearco turbo kit on it.
This was a system that boosted under the carb. A system EVERYBODY told me was crap (well, except for Shelby Spearco) and that I wasted my money.
Some of them called it a 'pull through' system which was a 'bad design'. 

My brother bought a kit as well for his Mustang.

I put the kit on the stock 351M engine and was impressed, but not overly so. I worked overseas and didn't have that much time to work on it, but between me and my brother, I worked out a cam change with Crower and my brother installed the new cam.
I had been trying to use a normally aspirated camshaft with the turbo. Once Crower knew, they went... oh, man! Why didn't you tell us you had a turbo!

New cam made what little lag there was ego away, the boost climbed, the pinging reduce (I used water injection at the time) and I was impressed! A darned fast 4WD truck.

Fast forward a few years and I pulled the engine, stroked it to 400 and reduced the compression with some new forged pistons. I also installed a larger diameter exhaust system.

I was running 22lbs of boost and you wouldn't believe the number of Camaros, Mustangs and other 'high performance' vehicles that I shut down off the lights with a 4WD 2-ton plus Bronco! It was impressive! And extremely entertaining at the next light when you heard their comments.

OK, OK... I did blow a head gasket once, but man... that truck was impressive! And it worked perfectly as an everyday driver.
I wish I had kept it.... oh well.

I will now retire and let the experts have at it. Oh, and my brother's '70 Mustang was a rocketship. Shift from low to second with a C6 automatic was VERY impressive. Of course, his transmission didn't last long.... soup something up, break something else.

So much for the experts telling us that it was a crap system.... It might have not been the optimum, but there was no lag and a very impressive increase in HP and TQ. After all, that's what we were both looking for. Not that we had the ultimate of the ultimate.

Later,
Kirby

On 13 Aug 2009, at 9:45 PM, boyd casey wrote:
So you are saying a whipple cranks out the ponies?. Does anyone know the formula to determine the supper charger displacement relative to the engine displacement? I know a turbo charger is supposed to put out more horsepower but I don't like the lag and the heat that's why I am asking about a super charger.

On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:36 PM, clay willmott <claywillmott at hotmail.com> wrote:

I agree the SVT with Eaton are amazing for the money.  I just picked up a 2004 Cobra with light mods and almost 500 RWHP and still has an Eaton.  Would Whipple it but already roasts upgraded wheels and tires at speed.  Not many cars with that much power and dependable for the money.
Although it is way faster than my pantera (71) I still think the pcar handles better on curves and is more fun for driving.  The cobra is more fun for raw acceleration and power though.

Didnt PIM sell a silver 5.4 lightning engined pantera that Steve W constructed awhile back for some big money?

Clay

> From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:27:34 -0500
> CC: detomaso at realbig.com

> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger question
>
>
> OK, Will... I disagree!
>
> My Lightning could ALWAYS use more HP. Except when I'm pulling a 24'
> trailer through the rain uphill...
> :-)
>
> At 122,000 miles, I think I need to experience some extra ponies.
> You wouldn't believe what some guys are getting out of a 'stock' 5.4
> Lightning....
>
>
> On 13 Aug 2009, at 9:19 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
>
> > Yes - a big can of worms.
> >
> > I've posted before that I had a 93 Mustang Cobra.  It had a warmed
> > over 5.0.
> > Nothing fancy, but plenty fast enough for getting around on the
> > street.
> >
> > After I had it for several years, I finally decided that it would be
> > fun to
> > try a Vortech.  I got the kit designed for about 9lbs of boost.  I
> > forget
> > the model #.  With the Vortech, it was like driving on ice.  The
> > tires spun
> > easily.  Gas mileage did not go down.  It did not have an
> > intercooler/aftercooler.
> >
> > Another data point:  My brother has a 2003 Cobra.  It has a 4.6 dohc
> > with
> > the factory Eaton.  He has done minor mods, mostly just a smaller
> > pulley and
> > a custom tune.  He makes about 430hp to the rear wheels - from
> > 231".  That's
> > impressive.  It has an air-water cooler under the blower.  Some of
> > the 03
> > Cobra guys are getting over 500hp, and probably even 600hp to the rear
> > wheels with fairly simple mods (ported stock blower or upgrade to a
> > Kenne
> > Bell)
> >
> > My opinion - any blower will make more HP than you will use.  A twin
> > screw
> > would be easier to mount.  A centrifugal is a challenge.  A big GMC/
> > BDS
> > would be interesting if you could make it fit.  But... turbos would
> > probably
> > be even easier to mount, plus they'd make more hp.  If you're going
> > to be a
> > bear...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> > ] On
> > Behalf Of Kirby Schrader
> > Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 9:09 PM
> > To: boyd casey
> > Cc: De Tomaso List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger question
> >
> >
> > Oh my, Boyd! You've opened ANOTHER can of worms!
> > :-)
> >
> > Just kidding.
> >
> > What little I know...
> >
> > The Eaton rotor type works well with a nice performance increase, but
> > it adds heat as you go for more boost.
> > After all, there are a ton of them out there. I have one on my
> > Lightning.
> >
> > Most everyone going for the ultimate HP gets rid of the Eaton.
> >
> > I now bow to 'those who know'.
> >
> > Kirby
> >
> > On 13 Aug 2009, at 8:52 PM, boyd casey wrote:
> >
> >> Aside from the obvious issues ofhood clearence and rear visability
> >> whic is
> >> the best type of super harger for a cleveland or windsor engine  , a
> >> Paxton
> >> Turbine type , or a top mounted with rotors. If someone can
> >> reccomend a
> >> spscefic brand and the specs ( model #) or size relative to
> >> displacement.
> >>
> >> Boyd
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>
> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/
> >> detomaso/
> >>
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/
> > detomaso/
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.55/2301 - Release Date:
> > 08/13/09
> > 18:16:00
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/
> > detomaso/
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

_________________________________________________________________
Get your vacation photos on your phone!
http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM

_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/

DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

_________________________________________________________________
Get your vacation photos on your phone!
http://windowsliveformobile.com/en-us/photos/default.aspx?&OCID=0809TL-HM