[DeTomaso] efi horse power gain

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Mon Aug 10 22:36:56 EDT 2009 

Kirby,

 

Spounds like I am going down very familiar teritory for you. My GT40 EFI is a TWM 50mm throttle body IR and I'm using a Haltech F9 that will be tuned via TPS.

 

Would you have any baseline fuel maps that you could share?

 

Thanks,

Julian
 
> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 14:23:27 -0500
> From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com
> CC: wkooiman at earthlink.net; detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> 
> A definite issue. Just like trying to use a mass air flow sensor with IR!
> :-)
> 
> My Pantera system uses throttle position only. I use a MAP sensor to
> compensate for barometric pressure. The Haltech F9a can do manifold
> pressure or barometric pressure, but since I did not have a plenum, I
> went the route I did. It works fine.
> 
> The GT40 has a common plenum mounted to the base of the intake
> manifold. This is a TWM setup with their 'wheel actuated' throttle
> linkage mounted on top of the plenum. Each throttle body has a vacuum
> hose running to the plenum and the MAP sensor is attached to the
> plenum. So there is a 'common' vacuum.
> 
> However, with IR and a decent cam, even the 'common' vacuum is not
> very constant. The TEC3r helps compensate for this with a feature they
> call 'TPS blend'. You adjust a curve/map for how much throttle
> position input you want vs manifold pressure. So at low rpm's, you add
> a lot of TPS bias and as the rpm goes up, you can rely on manifold
> pressure. It works really nicely once you get your head around what it
> does and how to adjust it.
> 
> Not sure I understand your pulses statement. Are you saying the ECU
> measures each pulse of vacuum from each throttle body? The ones I'm
> familiar with measure the manifold pressure as a single entity. There
> is no attempt to find pulses. That'd be real tricky with longer hoses
> giving different response...
> If someone claims to do this, I haven't seen such a system. I guess I
> need to read up on this mega system called FAST.
> 
> If you used all throttle position, the TEC3r would not need to know
> anything about the manifold vacuum, I think. More reading to do. After
> all, Will might give me more grief if I don't know the answer to that
> one!
> :-)
> 
> Later,
> Kirby
> 
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I guess the only difference I can think of between an IR system and a system
> > with one or two throttle bodies feeding a common plenum (a tunnel ram like
> > system) is the MAP sensor signal.  Just seems like it could be tricky?  4
> > pulses per revolution versus 1/2 pulse?  But I think that not all EFI
> > systems need MAP sensors?  I think the TEC-3 and FAST both do???
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> > To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 6:23 AM
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> > Thought about your comment over the weekend and I'm not sure what the
> > difference would be with an IR system... If the throttle bodies are
> > synchronized so they work good at low rpm and idle, then I would think
> > it would be the same as any other system. Should be transparent to the
> > 'tuner'. When I had the GT40 on the dyno, the guy didn't even ask or
> > seem to care that it was IR. But then, maybe he wasn't a 'good' tuner!
> > :-)
> > As a side comment, he was not familiar with the TEC3r at all, but once
> > I showed him how it worked and where stuff was (the VE table made his
> > eyes light up... Ah! OK!! I'm good with that!), he was happy.
> > And like I said before, I drove away happy with another 40HP.
> >
> > And Boyd mentioned that someone recommended inside rails being better
> > vs outside rails. I'm still struggling with this. The only thing I can
> > think of is the length of the connecting hoses being shorter on the
> > inside setup. Shorter hose, better fuel distribution/pressure. My
> > rails are on the outside on my Pantera; inside with the GT40. Another
> > possibility is the direction of the injector spray... inside rails
> > point the injector more toward the intake port. But if you have a tall
> > throttle body, then I wouldn't think this would make that much
> > difference since it would be spraying towards the side of the throttle
> > body anyway.
> > I will say that when you put the rails on the inside, it gets REALLY
> > crowded in there with the linkage and the injectors and the wiring.
> >
> > Ah yes... the 'experts'. In my experience, on and off the job,  the
> > way to find out if they are experts or not is start asking in depth
> > questions. If you get blown off by comments like 'don't worry about
> > that', 'I've done it for years', etc. as answers, then they are not
> > experts. They just think they are.
> > :-)
> >
> > FWIW,
> > Kirby
> >
> > PS: Wow... thanks for the kudos, Will!
> > Dangerous territory you're skirting there... Me? An EFI expert?
> > I just have two systems that I installed and have tuned myself.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I'm not sure what the difference is between Bosch and Lucas, but if you
> >> are
> >> going after high HP, I think you want low impedance (aka, peak & hold)
> >> injectors.  A lot of stock ECUs can't provide the power for low impedance
> >> injectors, but both the TEC-3 and FAST ECUs can.  The advantage is that a
> >> low impedance injector opens quicker, so if you have a high flow rate
> >> injector, you can control it better at low fuel demand.
> >>
> >> I have been told that it is easier to tune the FAST ECU, but that may
> >> depend
> >> on who does the tuning.  I think you can actually spend more on dyno
> >> tuning
> >> than what you pay for the ECU, so it's probably best to get hooked up with
> >> an experienced local tuner and get the ECU he likes to tune.  It also may
> >> be
> >> important that the tuner has done 8 stack systems, but I'm just
> >> speculating
> >> on that.  Like someone said, an EFI system is only as good as it's tuned.
> >>
> >> And, every expert you ask will give a different opinion.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >> To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> >> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:00 PM
> >>
> >> I have been speaking to Gary at twm induction and they actually use a
> >> weber intake manifold and machine it to adapt the injectors . He said
> >> that the FAST computer was the way togo now adays. The system Mad dawg
> >> has was he top of the line back when he got it but the new fast system
> >> is supposed to be supierior. The important factors are sequentail
> >> injection vs batch injection, the speed of the system and how many
> >> injectors it cam control. Also lots of the Weber style EFI have the
> >> injectors and fuel rails on the out side and thats supposed to be a no
> >> no. Another big factor is the injectors. Gary told me the Bosch were
> >> far supierior.  ( cost around $300 or $400 more then the lucas
> >> injectors. Many of the systems are designed as EFI for dummies. No
> >> fuel return, no computer pprogram adjustmment neccesary. It seems to
> >> me if your going to bite the bulet for $6500.00 + you may as well do
> >> it right or just  go with a holley commander for around $2000.00.
> >>
> >> Boyd
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Kirby Schrader<kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Ah, yes.... another person doing
> >>> IR EFI on a GT40. Let us know how you get on!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jack Houpe, Mike Trusty and myself all have a TWM setup with a TEC3r (Jack uses a TEC2)
> >>> on our GT40's.
> >>> Each one of us attacked the twin tank fuel feed setup differently.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I need to re-plumb my fuel system. I have a 'better idea' than what I am using now.
> >>> On 8 Aug 2009, at 11:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I am in the initial stages of an EFI retrofit on the GT40 with a TWM IR
> >>> system. Even after getting a good deal on the TWM throttle bodies and the
> >>> ECU it has cost far more than I care to tell in $$ and time (it's all the
> >>> little stuff, plus the complexity of twin tanks in that application
> >>> requiring a swirl pot etc.). I constantly ask myself why I didn't just
> >>> buy
> >>> a
> >>> Weber 48IDF set up and may even still do that.
> >>>
> >>> For the Pantera I have a Kinsler mechanical unit that I will convert to
> >>> EFI and the ECU will be the DTAFAST (out of the UK), it is as capable as
> >>> a
> >>> MOTEC at about half the cost.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.dtafast.co.uk/
> >>>
> >>> Julian
> >>>> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:54:49 -0400
> >>>> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
> >>>> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
> >>>> CC: kirby.schrader at gmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >>>>
> >>>> The EFI set up I am looking at and considering is basicaly the same
> >>>> one Mad dawg has. It is a twm Induction stack (looks like webers) The
> >>>> ECU I am considering is the FAST ( I spoke to dawg and this is a more
> >>>> upto date ECU then he has) Another key component are the injectors.The
> >>>> two things I don't have are Mike Trusty and the CASH! I'm working on
> >>>> the cash but I don't know what to do about Mike.
> >>>> Boyd
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Will Kooiman<wkooiman at earthlink.net>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > There's a very dramatic initial negative increase.  In most cases, the
> >>>> > initial increase is the carbureted HP * -1.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > After a year or two of fiddling around, EFI catches up.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Then you get smart and buy Mike Trusty a plane ticket.  You treat him
> >>>> > right,
> >>>> > feed him, and brag about how your tires hook really well.  Then M.T.
> >>>> > fiddles
> >>>> > for 15 minutes, and finally EFI surpasses your carbureted HP.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > But then you need better tires.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>>> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> >>>> > [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> >>>> > On
> >>>> > Behalf Of Charles Engles
> >>>> > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 8:46 AM
> >>>> > To: boyd casey
> >>>> > Cc: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at realbig.com
> >>>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Dear Boyd,
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >                  Perhaps Kirby Schrader would comment on this.   He
> >>>> > had
> >>>> > one
> >>>> >
> >>>> > of the Haltech EFI systems installed on his already healthy engine
> >>>> > back
> >>>> > in
> >>>> > the mid nineties and he has first hand experience about the before and
> >>>> > after
> >>>> >
> >>>> > performance.  He was very happy with the change.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >                             Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> > From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >>>> > To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >>>> > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:50 PM
> >>>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Can anyone tell me what kind of horsepower increase one could expect
> >>>> >> from the addition of a quality professionally setup sequential efi to
> >>>> >> a Cleveland  engine?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Boyd
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
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