[DeTomaso] efi horse power gain

[Will Demelo]

When pricing out a new stroker from Mark at MME racing engines, he told me 
that there would be slightly less hp with the IR-EFI over a carb (~30hp), if 
I recall correctly.
Will
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: "j g" <notstock at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "Kirby 
Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; "De Tomaso List" 
<detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain


> Gary at TWM said that he uses weber carb manifolds and he specifically 
> said
> "from Hall Pantera" I asked him if a manifold from another source would be
> okay and he said he wouldn't know until he saw it . I didn't know there 
> was
> a difference. He also said it took a substantial amount of machine shop 
> work
> to modify the manifold  for the Cleveland and that's why the Cleveland set
> up was more money then the Windsor. Anyway Hall has several Weber 
> manifolds
> currently  at the machine shop ( I assume being cleaned up after being 
> cast)
> their price is $650. They said they would have some ready in two weeks.
> As far as the "inside fuel rails"   I should have specified that the 
> reason
> I was given for the fuel rails to be "inside" the stacks was for the 
> optimal
> placement of the injectors and their being pointed in the correct 
> direction
> in  reference to the intake valve location.
> On another point if I remember correctly the Fast XFI has the ability to
> utilize  4 or 5 MAP sensors. As well as numerous optional sensors and
> controls. I had made earlier mention of the benefit of a "fast " system
> meaning a fast processor not the brand name "FAST."
> The "FAST XFI" has been designed with software that has more optional
> sensors and controls then any other sytem I am aware off. But just like
> trying to multi task with an old Pentium III you will over load your
> processor if you push it to hard. You need a system where the hardware can
> keep up with the software. According to what I have read the new FAST 
> system
> has the ability to handle all the potential tasks possible to assign to it
> through the software interface with processor power to spare. The way I
> understand it , the faser the engine is running( the higher the RPM's) the
> faster the other  engine parameters are changing and the faster the system
> needs to be able to respond . This may be nothing more then a sales pitch
> but it made some sense to me.
> I have two MSD 6al units and two blaster coils and the automatic coil
> selector. t Iallows you to attach the two coils to a common distributor 
> wire
> so you can switch from one MSD set up to the other in the event of a 
> failure
> of one of the MSD modules. The only things I am missing is the selector
> switch , the correct  distributor and the tach adapter. I have an MSD 
> small
> cap distributor and after a crummy mechanic told me my MSD6al was bad I
> bought a replacement MSD 6al for close to $300.00 ( if memory servers me
> correctly) . It turns out the MSD was not bad so now having two  MSD 6AL's
> and knowing MSD's reputation for dying at inopportune moments I decided to
> go with the dual switchable ignition set up. It was only after buying the
> extra coil and the MSD automatic coil selector  that I realized I wasn't
> able to use my distributor with the switchable set up ( this may not be
> factualy correc , but the sales rep at MSD seemed to think I needed to buy 
> a
> different one! ( no surprise there!). I had just spent a few hundred 
> dollars
> on the MSD small cap distributor in addition to the auto coil selector and
> the extra Blaster II coil and I didn't   feel like springing for another
> distributor (or anything else with the name MSD on it!) everything was now
> working and my Pantera  and my "To Do " list was already longer then my
> budget!  So now I keep the spare MSD6AL and the spare coil in my in car 
> tool
> kit ( along with the unused automatic coil selector) .
> So in case of a coil failure or an MSD 6AL failure I can still make it 
> home.
> It is certainly not as easy as flipping a switch but it beats walking or
> calling a tow truck. One of these day ( If I don't switch to a coil on 
> plug
> with a crank trigger) I will get the rest of the correct parts to utilize
> the MSD switch set up. I still have to decide if I am going to bite the
> bullet for the efi and if my ignition setup is compatible with whichever 
> ECU
> I wind up with (if I wind up with an EFI.) I know that many people go with
> EFI for a number of reasons besides performance HP Gains  (which seems to 
> be
> a subject of some contention ) they have reasons like reliability, easier
> starts, better fuel economy, but if all you were only considering  HP what
> is the consensus on the difference in horse power between a weber carb set
> up  and a weber "style" Stack EFI setup ? I know it's hard to make a
> statement based on a "style "of EFI because there are so many variables. 
> But
> to simplify matters (if that is possible) Hypothetically if you had Weber
> IDA's with the correct venturis and tuned to perfection  and you had  an
> equally well tuned Weber style EFI (like a TWM) do you think there would
> still be a HP difference between the two? Also The Weber IDF is supposed 
> to
> be more "Street able" than the IDA besides the absence of a choke on the 
> IDA
> what are the other differences?Does an IDF have two venturis to the IDA's 
> 3?
> The Lamborghini Miura had 6 Weber IDL's I believe this carb had 4 venturis 
> (
> as opposed to three on the IDA) Is this information correct?  Are the 4
> venturis on the IDL the reason they had a reputation for being so 
> difficult
> to tune? (I suppose a 12 cylinder with 6 webers and 4 venturis each as
> opposed to 4 webers  with 3 venturis each didn't help to make it any 
> easier)
> Are IDL's still available? Do people use them on Cleveland's or other push
> rod ,lower reving engines (lower then 12 cylinder Itailian  DOHC , 48 
> valve
> exotic engines) I know these are allot of questions and I want to say how
> much I appreciate the feed back and opinions of those of you who have 
> taken
> the time to contribute your ideas or opinions. The only way Novices 
> progress
> to the next stage is by learning and it makes much more sense (to me) to
> learn from the experience of those that have travelled down this road 
> before
> rather then try to go through my own trials of hit or miss 
> experimentation.
> I don't have the financial resources to try a plethora of different carbs 
> ,
> manifolds, heads  etc. With EFI there is the added choice of style (tunnel
> ram, weber stack style , 4 barrel throttle body, then the ECU, then 
> choosing
> between batch or sequential injection) You could spend years and a small
> fortune if you relied on trial and error.
> II know there are allot of members of this list that have forgotten more
> then I will ever know about this subject and automotive engineering in
> general . I learned early in life that it was not necessary to become an
> expert in every subject you were involved in to achieve success in it. It
> was necessary to be able to recognize the talent and expertise in others(
> and to listen to them). So by identifying the people who were masters of 
> the
> subject you were interested in you could actually achieves more then you
> could by attempting to master them all yourself.  I really appreciate the
> efforts and patience of those of you who have taken the time to share your
> knowledge, experience and secrets.  I'm sure to some they must at times 
> seem
> like redundant and or stupid questions. I have  always believed not asking
> the question was the stupid thing. So thanks to all of you for your help 
> and
> camaraderie, it is truly appreciated.
>
> Boyd
> PS. I forgot to mention Thanks for not  'grinding me into the asphalt' for
> occasionaly ( or more often) making a mistake or misstating facts. I
> sometimes forget to mention that I am esposing an opinion or repeating
> something I have read or heard and I am looking for confirmation  or 
> denial
> of the information so I know if I'm on the right track and I am  not
> pretending to be an "Expert" or :know it all" If I have an idea of my own 
> or
> a hypothesis it's a good way to find out if I have understood the concept 
> or
> theroy of what ever subject we happen to be discussing.  I don't just want
> to know what works, I want to know why it works or why it is better. If I
> never put forth one of my own ideas I will never know if I am still as
> clueless as I was when I started. If I am repeating something that I have
> read or that was told to me by a vendor or a self proclaimed expert I want
> to know if I have been sold a "bill of goods" or if the information is "on
> the money"
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