[DeTomaso] efi horse power gain

Ken Green kenn_green at yahoo.com
Mon Aug 10 21:37:24 EDT 2009 

Vic Edelbrock is usually at the Monterey Historics with a crew, he may be able to answer the question since his company makes a bunch of after market heads
 
Ken

--- On Mon, 8/10/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:


From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
To: "j g" <notstock at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>, wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 6:07 PM



After the mention of "direct injection" I started doing some research and found out a few interesting things

The first record of direct injection was in 1925.
I was told that there will not be any direct injection available in an after market product due to a number of factors. Direct injection requires precise placement of the injector right into the combustion chamber. According to the source I spoke to this was going to be such a specific application it would not be practical to design it post production for an engine design. The other issue was the fuel pressure. They said at pressures in the 2200lbs per sq inch the liability issues would be to great for someone to be willing to undertake the risks associated with such a system. This could be another case of a vendor telling me this so i would not wait for a new product but would instead buy the product that was currently on the shelf.
 
Boyd

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:11 PM, j g <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:

What has been found by lots of  engine manufacturers is that by placing the injectors above the throttle plates and injecting in the air horn on IR set ups that HP is increased over an injector  placed  either directed toward the back of the intake valve or  otherwise.
The reason is thermodynamics for the improvement .  The  injector spraying high in the intake horn on a warm (hot) engine cools the incoming air stream as it vaporizes in the intake air , this effectively increases the charge density and thus the HP output due to the charge improvement effect. This is a balancing act , as if the intake runner is long this will produce a  definate lag in throttle responce  so it is usually only done on short or very short IR systems.
Now what honda , and other bike  mfgs do as well as high end  auto mobile mfgs  is have 2 injectors that are staged ,  one in the intake track spraying as near the intake valve as possible so that throttle responce is maintained , cold start and warm up improved  and a secondary injector above the butterfly that "fogs ' the whole upper  IR to provide charge cooling at high engine outputs and revs. This can be taken to an even further degree in the case of direct cylinder injection of fuel , this  causes cylinder , piston and charge cooling as well as allows no predetionation due to controlling fuel entry prior to ignition event.
--- On Mon, 8/10/09, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>

Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 9:17 AM





OK, I did some checking this morning. It's the latter reason for the
inside rails.
Better spray direction towards the intake port.

There are claims this makes an improvement to performance based on
dyno testing at TWM.

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Kirby Schrader<kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Thought about your comment over the weekend and I'm not sure what the
> difference would be with an IR system... If the throttle bodies are
> synchronized so they work good at low rpm and idle, then I would think
> it would be the same as any other system. Should be transparent to the
> 'tuner'. When I had the GT40 on the dyno, the guy didn't even ask or
> seem to care that it was IR. But then, maybe he wasn't a 'good' tuner!
> :-)
> As a side comment, he was not familiar with the TEC3r at all, but once
> I showed him how it worked and where stuff was (the VE table made his
> eyes light up... Ah! OK!! I'm good with that!), he was happy.
> And like I said before, I drove away happy with another 40HP.
>
> And Boyd mentioned that someone recommended inside rails being better
> vs outside rails. I'm still struggling with this. The only thing I can
> think of is the length of the connecting hoses being shorter on the
> inside setup. Shorter hose, better fuel distribution/pressure. My
> rails are on the outside on my Pantera; inside with the GT40. Another
> possibility is the direction of the injector spray... inside rails
> point the injector more toward the intake port. But if you have a tall
> throttle body, then I wouldn't think this would make that much
> difference since it would be spraying towards the side of the throttle
> body anyway.
> I will say that when you put the rails on the inside, it gets REALLY
> crowded in there with the linkage and the injectors and the wiring.
>
> Ah yes... the 'experts'. In my experience, on and off the job,  the
> way to find out if they are experts or not is start asking in depth
> questions. If you get blown off by comments like 'don't worry about
> that', 'I've done it for years', etc. as answers, then they are not
> experts. They just think they are.
> :-)
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
> PS: Wow... thanks for the kudos, Will!
> Dangerous territory you're skirting there... Me? An EFI expert?
> I just have two systems that I installed and have tuned myself.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what the difference is between Bosch and Lucas, but if you are
>> going after high HP, I think you want low impedance (aka, peak & hold)
>> injectors.  A lot of stock ECUs can't provide the power for low impedance
>> injectors, but both the TEC-3 and FAST ECUs can.  The advantage is that a
>> low impedance injector opens quicker, so if you have a high flow rate
>> injector, you can control it better at low fuel demand.
>>
>> I have been told that it is easier to tune the FAST ECU, but that may depend
>> on who does the tuning.  I think you can actually spend more on dyno tuning
>> than what you pay for the ECU, so it's probably best to get hooked up with
>> an experienced local tuner and get the ECU he likes to tune.  It also may be
>> important that the tuner has done 8 stack systems, but I'm just speculating
>> on that.  Like someone said, an EFI system is only as good as it's tuned.
>>
>> And, every expert you ask will give a different opinion.
>>
>> Ken
>> --- On Sat, 8/8/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>> To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:00 PM
>>
>> I have been speaking to Gary at twm induction and they actually use a
>> weber intake manifold and machine it to adapt the injectors . He said
>> that the FAST computer was the way togo now adays. The system Mad dawg
>> has was he top of the line back when he got it but the new fast system
>> is supposed to be supierior. The important factors are sequentail
>> injection vs batch injection, the speed of the system and how many
>> injectors it cam control. Also lots of the Weber style EFI have the
>> injectors and fuel rails on the out side and thats supposed to be a no
>> no. Another big factor is the injectors. Gary told me the Bosch were
>> far supierior.  ( cost around $300 or $400 more then the lucas
>> injectors. Many of the systems are designed as EFI for dummies. No
>> fuel return, no computer pprogram adjustmment neccesary. It seems to
>> me if your going to bite the bulet for $6500.00 + you may as well do
>> it right or just  go with a holley commander for around $2000.00.
>>
>> Boyd
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Kirby Schrader<kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ah, yes.... another person doing
>>> IR EFI on a GT40. Let us know how you get on!
>>>
>>> Jack Houpe, Mike Trusty and myself all have a TWM setup with a TEC3r (Jack uses a TEC2)
>>> on our GT40's.
>>> Each one of us attacked the twin tank fuel feed setup differently.
>>>
>>> I need to re-plumb my fuel system. I have a 'better idea' than what I am using now.
>>> On 8 Aug 2009, at 11:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
>>>
>>> I am in the initial stages of an EFI retrofit on the GT40 with a TWM IR
>>> system. Even after getting a good deal on the TWM throttle bodies and the
>>> ECU it has cost far more than I care to tell in $$ and time (it's all the
>>> little stuff, plus the complexity of twin tanks in that application
>>> requiring a swirl pot etc.). I constantly ask myself why I didn't just buy
>>> a
>>> Weber 48IDF set up and may even still do that.
>>>
>>> For the Pantera I have a Kinsler mechanical unit that I will convert to
>>> EFI and the ECU will be the DTAFAST (out of the UK), it is as capable as a
>>> MOTEC at about half the cost.
>>>
>>> http://www.dtafast.co.uk/
>>>
>>> Julian
>>>> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:54:49 -0400
>>>> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
>>>> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
>>>> CC: kirby.schrader at gmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>>
>>>> The EFI set up I am looking at and considering is basicaly the same
>>>> one Mad dawg has. It is a twm Induction stack (looks like webers) The
>>>> ECU I am considering is the FAST ( I spoke to dawg and this is a more
>>>> upto date ECU then he has) Another key component are the injectors.The
>>>> two things I don't have are Mike Trusty and the CASH! I'm working on
>>>> the cash but I don't know what to do about Mike.
>>>> Boyd
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Will Kooiman<wkooiman at earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > There's a very dramatic initial negative increase.  In most cases, the
>>>> > initial increase is the carbureted HP * -1.
>>>> >
>>>> > After a year or two of fiddling around, EFI catches up.
>>>> >
>>>> > Then you get smart and buy Mike Trusty a plane ticket.  You treat him
>>>> > right,
>>>> > feed him, and brag about how your tires hook really well.  Then M.T.
>>>> > fiddles
>>>> > for 15 minutes, and finally EFI surpasses your carbureted HP.
>>>> >
>>>> > But then you need better tires.
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>>> > [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
>>>> > On
>>>> > Behalf Of Charles Engles
>>>> > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 8:46 AM
>>>> > To: boyd casey
>>>> > Cc: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at realbig.com
>>>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Boyd,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >                  Perhaps Kirby Schrader would comment on this.   He had
>>>> > one
>>>> >
>>>> > of the Haltech EFI systems installed on his already healthy engine back
>>>> > in
>>>> > the mid nineties and he has first hand experience about the before and
>>>> > after
>>>> >
>>>> > performance.  He was very happy with the change.
>>>> >
>>>> >                             Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>>> > To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> > Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:50 PM
>>>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] efi horse power gain
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Can anyone tell me what kind of horsepower increase one could expect
>>>> >> from the addition of a quality professionally setup sequential efi to
>>>> >> a Cleveland  engine?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Boyd
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