[DeTomaso] pictures

Fri Apr 3 16:12:04 EDT 2009

Is that not related to "thinner air" because it contains less Oxygen to mix
with the gas?
Thus you need more of it (air) and have to tune accordingly for that use.
Turbos do the same thing for the same reason, cram more air because the air
is less dense.

Take for example a Funny Car or Top Fuel car, Nitro fuel is nothing more
than liquid air, they only have a compression ratio of 3 or 4 to 1 because
all the air they need is pumped in as a liquid, the air intake on a AA/TF
car is limited to 63 square inches ( some use three holes, some use four
holes, but all of them equal 63 sq. inches of "intake area".

An Airplane uses a turbo because it needs to cram as much air as it can
because it's thinner or dare I say, air of less quality.
Again to use Dick's car as an example, he has two Turbos and a massive two
tank NOS system, he's using two simple cone type filters.

Look at NASCAR tracks, the best qualifying times are always in the spring
and late fall when the air is cool ( more dense ) and they can tune for it

So, cooler air is best, as long as there are filters in place, the "force
fed effect" isn't going to be that important, it's like women I guess, the
cooler they look on the outside, might mean the hotter they are on the
inside. ( digging on the nerdy secretary look who wears her hair up until
she gets home ) .

Michael in Savannah

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

>   But to address your position, consider the HP loss at altitude.  Dennis
> (MD) has mentioned several times how someone shows up at the Silver State
> with a 200 MPH car, just to hit the reality of lower pressure at altitude,
> and it is geneally cooler air at altitude.  Your only loosing a little over
> 2 PSI, but it does appear to make a big difference.
>
> Aircraft need turbos for power at high alititude, regardless of how cold
> the air is.
>
> I think we want cool air, but we need something to urge it into the engine
> too.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:32 PM
>
>
> Seriously folks, has anybody ever had ANY Pantera ever starve for air for
> reasons other than a restrictive cleaner assembly or dirty air filter
> material?
>
> We are talking about an Internal Combustion Engine, which is nothing more
> than an air pump to begin with, I have no idea of the volume of air
> required
> to mix with a gallon of gas ( a simple google search would probably answer
> that ) but I can assure you that if hooking it up to an A/C unit was
> something that would have worked that Smokey Yunick would have done in 50
> years ago.  The engine SUCKS all the air it wants, I see the main job as
> being able to give it non turbulent, cooler (rather than hotter), clean
> air from which to draw what it wants.  Unless you are tuned to take
> advantage of forced air ( Blower, Supercharger, NOS ) I don't think that
> any
> form of forced feeding is going to make a great deal of difference.
> Personally, I think all the scoops, RAM AIR gimmicks of the 60 and 70's was
> more about looks because in every instance these lead to paper filters
> which
> restricted airflow to the limit of the filter material. PERIOD.  The
> advantage was in the cooler temp of the air, not the force feeding, these
> ain't french geese and we ain't making pate!  Stuffing it in won't make it
> better unless you richen the mixture to the same formula, otherwise it
> would
> simply lean it out, thus back to the limit of what the engine wants and the
> limit of the restrictive material of the filter elements and being tuned
> for
> that level of air induction.
>
>
> OK, I'm ready, go ahead spank me and tell me how many ways I am wrong.
>
>
> Speaking of which, I visited Atlanta last weekend and stopped by Dick
> Koch's
> house, if you want to see a photo of his bad ass Twin turbo NOS injected
> engine, go to my website www.michaelspantera.com, select Photos, go down
> to
> Pantera Friends and then go to the bottom of the page.
>
> His air cleaners to feed that beast are basically two larger than average K
> & N cone style filters near the rear windows ( which have been removed )
> because it will suck all the air it wants - all by itself and I seriously
> doubt that any other engine out there in Panteraland will requires more air
> than this one.
>
>
> Michael in Savannah
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kenn_green@yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > You still need either velocity or a pressure difference to get air to
> move
> > no matter what the temperature is.  I know the area above the flat
> surface
> > of the rear deck is low pressure, so air probably won't flow from there
> to
> > the engine, but I don't know if the area above the rear of the cabin
> (where
> > Goran's scoop is) is high or low.  If there is a stagnant boundry layer
> > there at a higher pressure, then air will move and the scoop may not be
> > needed.  I was hoping Goran was measuring some of that.
> >
> > We are suppose to get a lot of air moving from under the car and up
> around
> > the engine, so is the air under the car at high pressure, or is the area
> > around the engine low pressure, or both?
> >
> > The rear wheel wells are also suppose to be high pressure, so air will
> flow
> > from the wheel well forward, but how much and at what speed?
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 4/3/09, michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=red3644@hotmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: michael frazier <red3644 at hotmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=red3644@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > To: "David Adin" <adin at frontier.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adin@frontier.net>>,
> "pantera list" <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
> > >
> > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been searching for this article for years...very concise & easy to
> > understand test results.  In the real world, there
> >
> > are greater and easier gains to be had by lowering intake temps than
> > raising pressures.  Real world! not counting superchargers
> >
> > and the like.  Just taking air from somewhere cooler than the normal
> engine
> > compartment air was better than ramming air into the engine.  You get the
> > best of both from a scoop usually, but the benefit comes from the temp
> drop.
> > Reducing air pressure below atmospheric was not in the cards.  I guess
> you
> > could design/build a scoop bad enough to actually lower pressure around
> the
> > carb.  Whatever....what were we talking about?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Gruppo Rompiculi Corsa...BBORR...4 Panteras, 1 GT40
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:21:22 -0600
> > > From: adin at frontier.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adin@frontier.net>
> > > To: detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > >
> > > I have to agree w/ Tomas, but ask myself these questions:
> > >
> > > If the scoop is not getting "ram air" but instead is getting "low
> > > pressure" air, is this "low pressure" lower than ram air but higher
> > > that atmospheric pressure? or is the "low pressure" actually lower
> > > than atmospheric?
> > >
> > > Some kind of retard,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guson@home.se>
> >:
> > >
> > > > I think it serves its purpose as long as the air is cool. The ram
> > > > effect is probably less important than temp.
> > > >
> > > > Tomas
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kenn_green@yahoo.com>
> >
> > > > To: <DeTomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@realbig.com>>;
> "Göran Malmberg" <hemipanter at hemipanter.se<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hemipanter@hemipanter.se>
> > >
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Goran,
> > > >>
> > > >> Have you evaluated the roof scoop at high speeds? I would not have
> > > >> expected you to get much air in that location.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ken
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hemipanter@hemipanter.se>>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> From: Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hemipanter@hemipanter.se>
> >
> > > >> Subject: [DeTomaso] pictures
> > > >> To: DeTomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@realbig.com>
> > > >> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 1:42 PM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I got a few new images on this site. If you got nothing else to do,
> > > >> why not take a look.
> > > >> http://www.garaget.org/?car=40839
> > > >> Goran
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > > >>
> > > >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
> > http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> > > >>
> > > >> DeTomaso mailing list
> > > >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > > >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > > >>
> > > >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
> > http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> > > >>
> > > >> DeTomaso mailing list
> > > >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > > >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > > >
> > > > Archive Search Engine Now Available at
> > http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> > > >
> > > > DeTomaso mailing list
> > > > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > > > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > >
> > > Archive Search Engine Now Available at
> http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> > >
> > > DeTomaso mailing list
> > > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you.
> >
> >
> http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> > http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael@michaelshortt.com>
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>

-- 

Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390

This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you
have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you