[DeTomaso] LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re: PANTERARAN GREA
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Tue Sep 23 22:27:14 EDT 2008
Doug,
Mike won't answer until tomorrow. He goes to bed early!
But gets up REAL early....
:-)
MAP with TPS
MD's throttle bodies are individually tied into a central 'box'
sitting in the intake valley.
The MAP sensor runs off of that for 'total' manifold pressure.
There's a throttle position sensor also.
The TEC3r can 'blend' the two together at the low end.
There, Mike.... I hope I passed the test.
:-)
Kirby
On 23 Sep 2008, at 6:33 PM, Doug Braun wrote:
> Mike,
>
> I'm confused. Below, you refer to "mass flow". Does this mean
> that MD has
> a mass airflow sensor somewhere in his system? Or is his
> Electromotive
> system a speed-density (MAP sensor) type EFI?
>
> Doug Braun
> blue 73L #5505
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]On Behalf Of Mike Trusty
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:41 PM
> To: 'Kirby Schrader'; 'Mad Dog Antenucci'
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re:
> PANTERARAN GREA
>
>
> 1. The person that told you "not a good idea to run leaded fuel" was
> pertaining to the affect of leaded fuel on an O2 sensor.
>
> 2. Leaded fuels have a tendency to foul O2 sensors causing false
> output
> signals from the sensor.
>
> 3. This is very important on "stock" injection systems found in
> production
> cars. These systems operate in what is called "closed loop". In
> other
> words the rate of fuel injected in the engine is controlled by the O2
> sensor. If the ECU gets bad input from the O2 sensor then the motor
> will
> run bad.
>
> 4. The system that is in Dennis's car uses the O2 input primarily for
> reference and for tuning. It can be run in closed loop the same as
> "stock"
> injection systems but the best mode for performance applications is
> in the
> normal "mass flow" phase that compares many parameters to determine
> the fuel
> needed. His system can also operate in a combination of the two
> with the O2
> controlling the fuel curve at low load conditions and the "mass air"
> logic
> controlling it at high loads. His can also run in a full "closed
> loop" mode
> like current stock car systems but should only be used in low load
> driving
> and should never use leaded fuel.
>
> 5. Contrary to popular belief an O2 sensor just can't respond quick
> enough
> to properly control a true performance engine. The signal output is
> always
> lagging behind what the engine is wanting. Yes it is only a
> fraction of a
> second but it is a fraction of a second.
>
> 6. To answer Dennis's question about running race fuel is to say
> that you
> only need to be concerned about how long you run race fuel and the
> affect it
> has on your o2 sensor. Since you are only monitoring with the O2
> sensor it
> will have no affect on how the car runs. Since you only run the
> fuel for
> short thirty minute blasts and then convert back to highway fuels it
> will
> not hurt your O2 sensor. It will likely self clean itself very
> quickly
> after going to standard fuel. I would recommend that you do free air
> calibrations on your O2 sensor often with your application and you
> should be
> OK. You do know how to do free air calibrations don't you? If all
> else
> fails, read the instructions.
>
> 7. Kirby is right about the cold start enrichments. I did not
> change them
> from the default settings and probably should have. The reason I
> didn't was
> that I knew you would on rare occasion see possibly very cold start
> conditions at some of the events that you go to. If I just
> arbitrarily took
> all of them out or even cut them in half from the default settings,
> the car
> might have ran very poorly until warm or not at all under those
> conditions.
> Now that there is experience with this condition I would recommend
> what
> Kirby said and cut these setting in half and wait until the next
> cold start
> and see what happens. There are some other tricks that you could do
> like
> letting the system operate in closed loop at low loads with a lot of
> authority and then have it transition to mass flow based on manifold
> pressure or rpm or a combination of both. The guy that I told you
> about
> close to your home can help with this until you get up to speed on the
> computer.
>
> Did that help?
>
>
>
> Mike Trusty Engineering
> 15119 Gorgeous View Trail
> Little Rock, AR 72210
> Ph: 501-224-9013
> Fax: 501-421-0151
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:32 PM
> To: Mad Dog Antenucci
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com; miketrusty at msn.com
> Subject: Re: LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re: [DeTomaso]
> PANTERA
> RAN GREA
>
> MD,
>
> First, on the running beautifully, it would do that once warmed up.
> The ECU would compensate for the air temp, coolant temp and altitude
> with the MAP because you've mapped it/ adjusted it once warmed up.
>
> What hasn't been changed (I'm just assuming here.... maybe Mike Trusty
> did some tweaking here already?) is your cold start up adjustment.
> That's all you need to tweak now.
>
> The fuel type shouldn't matter, in my opinion. Could be wrong
> though... as long as you have the octane rating necessary, you should
> be good to go.
>
> Did he give a _reason_ for it 'not being a good idea'?
>
> Kirby
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Mad Dog Antenucci
> <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> PS the race fuel was leaded 110
>>
>> Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Kirby, MikeT, All
>>
>> I'm sure what fuel I had in the Pantera had no impact on 'cold' run
>> condition because the engine ran beautifully from start to finish
>> sunday.
>>
>> One of the racers in Ely asked me if I was running 'leaded race'
>> car with
>> the EFI system. I told him yea that I was running a mix of 92
>> unleaded
> with
>> leaded race fuel and he suggested it wasn't advisable.
>>
>> True not true?
>>
>> Comments?
>>
>> Dawg
>>
>> Kirby Schrader wrote:
>> Well, uhhhhh.... OK.....
>>
>> First, I'm pleased 'cold in Texas' was so funny! My tongue in cheek
>> comments don't usually merit such a response! And, by the way, even
>> in
>> Houston it gets below freezing.
>>
>> In any case....
>>
>> 'Cold' to an EFI system means almost anything below about 50F. A
>> temperature at which the combustion process needs more fuel instead
>> of
>> air. (Everyone with a carb uses a choke to compensate.... duh.)
>>
>> I doubt MD's car has experienced this since the initial EFI
>> installation in sunny CA. Being 'not so warm' in Nevada was the first
>> time he's experienced the running rich phenomenon (assumption!)
>>
>> In any case, I stand by my recommendation to MD.
>>
>> In fact, an even easier solution would be just set the parameters at
>> half the values they currently are set and and then see if the car
>> still starts and runs OK the next time it's 'cold' outside. I'll bet
>> it will work fine. In fact, it may still even be too rich. If so,
>> half
>> them again.
>>
>> Secondly, Mike.... Ice may fake out the air temp sensor (which is
>> easy
>> enough to get to), but the actual air temp going into the combustion
>> chamber wouldn't change. And don't forget the coolant/engine
>> temperature. That is part of the cold start setup as well.
>>
>> You really do need 'cold' air and 'cold' engine and coolant to adjust
>> the cold start parameters correctly. Which means a trial and error
>> approach each 'cold' morning.
>>
>> Kirby (worked in Sweden at 40 below which is _cold_) Schrader
>>
>> PS: 40 below is 40 below. Durango or Sweden.
>> ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 12:40 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>> Cold in Texas? PuuulllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZ.
>>>
>>> We have already had morning in the 30s - drop it off for a few days
>>> and I'll wring it out for you!
>>>
>>> cold in texas BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - I don't care who you are, that's
>>> funny.
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting Kirby Schrader :
>>>
>>>> Asa,
>>>>
>>>> The Electromotive default parameters for the cold start are very
>>>> rich.
>>>> I am assuming that they haven't been touched...
>>>>
>>>> In fact, I have turned mine off completely on the GT40 and
>>>> haven't had
>>>> a problem, so far.
>>>> Admittedly, it isn't too cold in Texas yet.... and I might have
>>>> to add
>>>> some in later...
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> I had the same problem 8 years ago after I installed the Haltech
>>>> EFI
>>>> on my Pantera.
>>>> First cold morning starting up to go to work was an eye watering
>>>> experience...
>>>> The amount of black smoke was amazing until it warmed up.
>>>>
>>>> The difficult part with that tuning is you need a cold morning
>>>> every
>>>> day for a week or so to get it right.
>>>>
>>>> Kirby
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:18 AM, wrote:
>>>>> Kirby,
>>>>>
>>>>> You know the Dog can't turn a wrench. Why do you think he needs
>>>>> peons
>>>>> like me to come along?
>>>>>
>>>>> Trouble is, we didn't do any testing at all once in Ely. Even
>>>>> had we,
>>>>> I didn't have the software loaded on my notebook (gee that would
>>>>> have
>>>>> been a good idea), but we -did- take the Electromotive book with
>>>>> us in
>>>>> case of real difficulty. Though again, the morning of the race, he
>>>>> went to the start line and I went to the finish, so we wouldn't
>>>>> have
>>>>> tuned it anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure he'll have Dick Drenske over soon to give it a whirl and
>>>>> tweak it a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will say though, once warmed up and having run 150 for a bit
>>>>> over
>>>>> half an hour, it was really purring and running very nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Asa Jay
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoting Kirby Schrader :
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Dawg,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You _know_ you can adjust that warm up sequence to make it right,
>>>>>> don't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just get off the Crackberry and get on the laptop hooked to the
>>>>>> ECU!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22 Sep 2008, at 9:09 PM, Mad Dog Antenucci wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Morning,
>>>>>>> AJ and I made it back okay.....we ran an easy 150.38 mph which
>>>>>>> WOULD
>>>>>>> have been good for a trophy 12 years ago but not on Sunday....
>>>>>>> 2008
>>>>>>> viper ran a near perfect 149.995 mph average....still he was a
>>>>>>> candy
>>>>>>> ass driving a new machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan Courtney came up with new Cobra Bullet wheels and Z rated
>>>>>>> rubber
>>>>>>> but his bow tie engine started losing oil pressure and he
>>>>>>> dropped
>>>>>>> out right after narrows....racers were SHOCKED to see his
>>>>>>> Pantera
>>>>>>> becaus it was so rough but I have to give him credit for
>>>>>>> trying to
>>>>>>> win the $5 million challenge.....AJ printed out fake bills hehe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The EFI changes were impressive....tell the efi guy that he
>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>> lean out cold operating whatever on ECU.....one of the reasons
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> ran so rough UNTIL it was cold according to a couple EFI
>>>>>>> people is
>>>>>>> the computer thinking something is wrong because it takes so
>>>>>>> long to
>>>>>>> warm up....what scared me was I used all most a quarter tank
>>>>>>> of fuel
>>>>>>> (half of it race gas) to go from Ely 20 or so miles to pre
>>>>>>> grid....I
>>>>>>> gased up at lund truck stop but was really worried that I
>>>>>>> would come
>>>>>>> up short on run.....but soon as engine was WARM after leaving
>>>>>>> starting line the fuel economy was BETTER then the old Holly
>>>>>>> double
>>>>>>> pumper.........the oil temp was like 200-210 but water assuming
>>>>>>> temps were correct never got to 180 UNLESS we got a bad
>>>>>>> reading....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Side skirt on drivers side on FRONT pulled loose but stayed on
>>>>>>> car....so no worried there....talk to you soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daw
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>>>>>>> Team Pantera Racing
>>>>>>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>>>>>>> www.teampanteraracing.com
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>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>> Team Pantera Racing
>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>> www.teampanteraracing.com
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>>
>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>> Team Pantera Racing
>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>> www.teampanteraracing.com
>
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