[DeTomaso] LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re: PANTERA RAN GREA

Tue Sep 23 19:36:59 EDT 2008

Dawg:

5,001 WHP in a Pantera?? No wonder you were first on the grid!!!

  "The guy you recommended did a great job in dialing in the near-final adjustment of the system. We picked up another 16 HP on final dyno tune before Silver State ...485 to 5001WHP at only 6,000 rpm."

LOL

Ed.....

----- Original Message ----
From: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
To: Mike Trusty <miketrusty at msn.com>; Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 6:43:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re: PANTERA RAN GREA

Mike,

  Thanks  for your very detailed response...yea it helped allot! ;-]>
  Also appreciate everything else you did in building the system. 

  The guy you recommended did a great job in dialing in the near-final adjustment of the system. We picked up another 16 HP on final dyno tune before Silver State ...485 to 5001WHP at only 6,000 rpm.

  Dawg

Mike Trusty <miketrusty at msn.com> wrote:
  1. The person that told you "not a good idea to run leaded fuel" was
pertaining to the affect of leaded fuel on an O2 sensor.

2. Leaded fuels have a tendency to foul O2 sensors causing false output
signals from the sensor. 

3. This is very important on "stock" injection systems found in production
cars. These systems operate in what is called "closed loop". In other
words the rate of fuel injected in the engine is controlled by the O2
sensor. If the ECU gets bad input from the O2 sensor then the motor will
run bad.

4. The system that is in Dennis's car uses the O2 input primarily for
reference and for tuning. It can be run in closed loop the same as "stock"
injection systems but the best mode for performance applications is in the
normal "mass flow" phase that compares many parameters to determine the fuel
needed. His system can also operate in a combination of the two with the O2
controlling the fuel curve at low load conditions and the "mass air" logic
controlling it at high loads. His can also run in a full "closed loop" mode
like current stock car systems but should only be used in low load driving
and should never use leaded fuel.

5. Contrary to popular belief an O2 sensor just can't respond quick enough
to properly control a true performance engine. The signal output is always
lagging behind what the engine is wanting. Yes it is only a fraction of a
second but it is a fraction of a second.

6. To answer Dennis's question about running race fuel is to say that you
only need to be concerned about how long you run race fuel and the affect it
has on your o2 sensor. Since you are only monitoring with the O2 sensor it
will have no affect on how the car runs. Since you only run the fuel for
short thirty minute blasts and then convert back to highway fuels it will
not hurt your O2 sensor. It will likely self clean itself very quickly
after going to standard fuel. I would recommend that you do free air
calibrations on your O2 sensor often with your application and you should be
OK. You do know how to do free air calibrations don't you? If all else
fails, read the instructions.

7. Kirby is right about the cold start enrichments. I did not change them
from the default settings and probably should have. The reason I didn't was
that I knew you would on rare occasion see possibly very cold start
conditions at some of the events that you go to. If I just arbitrarily took
all of them out or even cut them in half from the default settings, the car
might have ran very poorly until warm or not at all under those conditions.
Now that there is experience with this condition I would recommend what
Kirby said and cut these setting in half and wait until the next cold start
and see what happens. There are some other tricks that you could do like
letting the system operate in closed loop at low loads with a lot of
authority and then have it transition to mass flow based on manifold
pressure or rpm or a combination of both. The guy that I told you about
close to your home can help with this until you get up to speed on the
computer.

Did that help?

Mike Trusty Engineering
15119 Gorgeous View Trail
Little Rock, AR 72210
Ph: 501-224-9013
Fax: 501-421-0151
-----Original Message-----
From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:32 PM
To: Mad Dog Antenucci
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com; miketrusty at msn.com
Subject: Re: LEADED RACE FUEL & UNLEADED FUEL MIX???Re: [DeTomaso] PANTERA
RAN GREA

MD,

First, on the running beautifully, it would do that once warmed up.
The ECU would compensate for the air temp, coolant temp and altitude
with the MAP because you've mapped it/ adjusted it once warmed up.

What hasn't been changed (I'm just assuming here.... maybe Mike Trusty
did some tweaking here already?) is your cold start up adjustment.
That's all you need to tweak now..

The fuel type shouldn't matter, in my opinion. Could be wrong
though... as long as you have the octane rating necessary, you should
be good to go.

Did he give a _reason_ for it 'not being a good idea'?

Kirby

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Mad Dog Antenucci
wrote:
> PS the race fuel was leaded 110
>
> Mad Dog Antenucci wrote:
>
> Kirby, MikeT, All
>
> I'm sure what fuel I had in the Pantera had no impact on 'cold' run
> condition because the engine ran beautifully from start to finish sunday.
>
> One of the racers in Ely asked me if I was running 'leaded race' car with
> the EFI system. I told him yea that I was running a mix of 92 unleaded
with
> leaded race fuel and he suggested it wasn't advisable.
>
> True not true?
>
> Comments?
>
> Dawg
>
> Kirby Schrader wrote:
> Well, uhhhhh.... OK.....
>
> First, I'm pleased 'cold in Texas' was so funny! My tongue in cheek
> comments don't usually merit such a response! And, by the way, even in
> Houston it gets below freezing.
>
> In any case....
>
> 'Cold' to an EFI system means almost anything below about 50F. A
> temperature at which the combustion process needs more fuel instead of
> air. (Everyone with a carb uses a choke to compensate.... duh.)
>
> I doubt MD's car has experienced this since the initial EFI
> installation in sunny CA. Being 'not so warm' in Nevada was the first
> time he's experienced the running rich phenomenon (assumption!)
>
> In any case, I stand by my recommendation to MD.
>
> In fact, an even easier solution would be just set the parameters at
> half the values they currently are set and and then see if the car
> still starts and runs OK the next time it's 'cold' outside. I'll bet
> it will work fine. In fact, it may still even be too rich. If so, half
> them again.
>
> Secondly, Mike.... Ice may fake out the air temp sensor (which is easy
> enough to get to), but the actual air temp going into the combustion
> chamber wouldn't change. And don't forget the coolant/engine
> temperature. That is part of the cold start setup as well.
>
> You really do need 'cold' air and 'cold' engine and coolant to adjust
> the cold start parameters correctly. Which means a trial and error
> approach each 'cold' morning.
>
> Kirby (worked in Sweden at 40 below which is _cold_) Schrader
>
> PS: 40 below is 40 below. Durango or Sweden.
> ;-)
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 12:40 PM, wrote:
>>
>> Cold in Texas? PuuulllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZ.
>>
>> We have already had morning in the 30s - drop it off for a few days
>> and I'll wring it out for you!
>>
>> cold in texas BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - I don't care who you are, that's
>> funny.
>>
>>
>> Quoting Kirby Schrader :
>>
>>> Asa,
>>>
>>> The Electromotive default parameters for the cold start are very rich.
>>> I am assuming that they haven't been touched...
>>>
>>> In fact, I have turned mine off completely on the GT40 and haven't had
>>> a problem, so far.
>>> Admittedly, it isn't too cold in Texas yet.... and I might have to add
>>> some in later....
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> I had the same problem 8 years ago after I installed the Haltech EFI
>>> on my Pantera.
>>> First cold morning starting up to go to work was an eye watering
>>> experience...
>>> The amount of black smoke was amazing until it warmed up.
>>>
>>> The difficult part with that tuning is you need a cold morning every
>>> day for a week or so to get it right.
>>>
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:18 AM, wrote:
>>>> Kirby,
>>>>
>>>> You know the Dog can't turn a wrench. Why do you think he needs peons
>>>> like me to come along?
>>>>
>>>> Trouble is, we didn't do any testing at all once in Ely. Even had we,
>>>> I didn't have the software loaded on my notebook (gee that would have
>>>> been a good idea), but we -did- take the Electromotive book with us in
>>>> case of real difficulty. Though again, the morning of the race, he
>>>> went to the start line and I went to the finish, so we wouldn't have
>>>> tuned it anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure he'll have Dick Drenske over soon to give it a whirl and
>>>> tweak it a bit.
>>>>
>>>> I will say though, once warmed up and having run 150 for a bit over
>>>> half an hour, it was really purring and running very nice.
>>>>
>>>> Asa Jay
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Kirby Schrader :
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Dawg,
>>>>>
>>>>> You _know_ you can adjust that warm up sequence to make it right,
>>>>> don't you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just get off the Crackberry and get on the laptop hooked to the ECU!
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Sep 2008, at 9:09 PM, Mad Dog Antenucci wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Morning,
>>>>>> AJ and I made it back okay.....we ran an easy 150.38 mph which WOULD
>>>>>> have been good for a trophy 12 years ago but not on Sunday....2008
>>>>>> viper ran a near perfect 149.995 mph average....still he was a candy
>>>>>> ass driving a new machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan Courtney came up with new Cobra Bullet wheels and Z rated rubber
>>>>>> but his bow tie engine started losing oil pressure and he dropped
>>>>>> out right after narrows....racers were SHOCKED to see his Pantera
>>>>>> becaus it was so rough but I have to give him credit for trying to
>>>>>> win the $5 million challenge.....AJ printed out fake bills hehe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EFI changes were impressive....tell the efi guy that he needs to
>>>>>> lean out cold operating whatever on ECU.....one of the reasons it
>>>>>> ran so rough UNTIL it was cold according to a couple EFI people is
>>>>>> the computer thinking something is wrong because it takes so long to
>>>>>> warm up....what scared me was I used all most a quarter tank of fuel
>>>>>> (half of it race gas) to go from Ely 20 or so miles to pre grid....I
>>>>>> gased up at lund truck stop but was really worried that I would come
>>>>>> up short on run......but soon as engine was WARM after leaving
>>>>>> starting line the fuel economy was BETTER then the old Holly double
>>>>>> pumper.........the oil temp was like 200-210 but water assuming
>>>>>> temps were correct never got to 180 UNLESS we got a bad reading....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Side skirt on drivers side on FRONT pulled loose but stayed on
>>>>>> car....so no worried there....talk to you soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daw
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>>>>>> Team Pantera Racing
>>>>>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>>>>>> www.teampanteraracing.com
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> Team Pantera Racing
> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
> www.teampanteraracing.com
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> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
> www.teampanteraracing.com

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Mad Dawg Antenucci 
Team Pantera Racing 
  The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing 
www.teampanteraracing.com
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