[DeTomaso] cooler air to carb

Ken Green kenn_green at yahoo.com
Sat Oct 11 12:46:24 EDT 2008 

I think that is accurate, but I'm not sure what affect the motion of the car has on air pressure within the boundry layer.  It would be interesting if someone could put pressure sensors in their air cleaner and see how the pressure changes as a function of speed for different air sources, scoops, etc.  Seems like an easy experiment.  Goran???
 
Ken

--- On Sat, 10/11/08, John Taphorn <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com> wrote:

From: John Taphorn <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb
To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, "Pantera List Serve" <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Christopher Kimball" <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 5:47 AM

This conversation seems all over the place, I need clarification

Is it correct to say that if your only goal is access to non-engine heated 
air for the intake, a closed system that is plumbed through the side gills 
(that do not extend into the air stream) is adequate.  Although a boundary 
layer may exist, it is not a vacuum and the engine will draw air into the 
carb from that location to meet its needs at any RPM/speed.

However, if one is seeking forced air induction, then another pathway is 
preferred.

Is it correct to say that boundary layer or not, the engine will have no 
impediment sucking air from the open side gill if tat gill is connected by a 
large hose to the aircleaner; only it may not be forced by the flow of air 
along the car into the gill.

In contrast, I recognize that if an open gill exists and it is an open 
system, i.e. not connected directly to the aircleaner, that the engine will 
take its air from that traveling up from under the car, rather than the from 
the gill.

Is this the popular opinion?

Thanks

JT


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: "Pantera List Serve" <detomaso at realbig.com>;
"Christopher Kimball" 
<chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb


>
> The discusion seems to have focused on getting into the air stream to get 
> a flow of air. You also can get a flow from a pressure difference. If the 
> air pressure above the deck is low, and there are openings in higher 
> pressure areas, maybe NACA ducts on the sides of the car in front of the 
> rear wheel wells, air should br drawn into the ducts, through the engine 
> compartment, and out over the rear deck.
>
> Ken
>
> --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb
> To: "Pantera List Serve" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:20 PM
>
> ...the post about the engine-cover fans was, you know, kind of a 
> joke...(ask
> Mike Drew about that).
>
> Sometime in the future I might write something such as, "As President
> Regan would say..." so be prepared!
>
> Chris
> #3846
>
>
>
>> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:18:54 -0600
>> From: adin at frontier.net
>> To: detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb
>>
>>
>> Little know fact, Bruce died testing some decades ago.  I doubt he has
>> been "recently quoted" on anything.
>>
>> Just the fact, ma'am . . . . sorry.
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>:
>>
>> >
>> > Little known fact:  All McLaren automobiles have two, small fans
>> > mounted on their engine covers ventilating the engine
compartment.
>
>> > They purchased the technology and associated patent from a
>> > little-known financial planner who lives in Washington State.
>> >
>> > Bruce McLaren was recently quoted as saying that if it
weren't
> for
>> > that brilliant design concept, none of his cars would have ever
>> > finished a race...
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris
>> > #3846
>> >
>> >> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:00:25 -0400
>> >> From: michael at michaelshortt.com
>> >> To: teampantera at yahoo.com
>> >> CC: RKMosier at aol.com; guson at home.se; detomaso at realbig.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb
>> >>
>> >> OK, how about we just agree that McLaren knows a thing or two
> about this and
>> >> that on the 1996 F1 Street Car which I think was the fastest
> production car
>> >> on the planet until last year, the fresh air is brought in on
the
> roof like
>> >> the thing that some of you guys use over the roof.
>> >>
>> >> Just like the air intake on an Formula One car, high over the
> drivers head
>> >> in the cleanest air they can find.
>> >>
>> >> Here is a group ( 10 teams ) that spend BILLIONS of dollars
on
> research
>> >> and employ the smartest car engineers in the world, all of
them
> use
>> >> air coolers ( even using portable fans powered by Makita
> batteries when
>> >> pitted ) and they rarely let them idle at a stand sit except
when
> waiting on
>> >> the sessions to open and if you want to hear David Hobbs
whine,
> let them sit
>> >> there for more than 30 seconds and see what happens.
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure that if there was a better way, Flux Capacitor
> Nitrogen dipped,
>> >> streamlined forced air triangulation induced induction with
big
> brown dark
>> >> raisin smuggler nipples - they'd be doing it!
>> >>
>> >> ;-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Michael in Savannah
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Mad Dog Antenucci
>> >> <teampantera at yahoo.com>wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Ahhhhh but we are talking a well engineered Porsche
engine
> not a Pantera
>> >> > FORD engine
>> >> >
>> >> > *"michael at michaelshortt.com"
> <michael at michaelshortt.com>* wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Same as used on many cars like my 944, a simple ducted
route
> to unheated
>> >> > air
>> >> > that is sucked in by the induction system only.
>> >> > It works or they wouldn't do it at Porsche.
>> >> >
>> >> > Michael in Savannah
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Richard,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I took a stock aircleaner in rough shape and
modified
> it. I made a new
>> >> > > snout to match the original aircleaner hole that
went
> from a rectangular
>> >> > > cross section to a round cross section. I then
bought
> flex hose as used
>> >> > for
>> >> > > kitchen fans (i.e. it doesn't burn easily) and
> routed it towards the
>> >> > ground.
>> >> > > At "ground level" I simply made a short
tube
> to clamp the hose to and
>> >> > bolted
>> >> > > the tube to the chassis. No scoop, no flaring, just
a
> straight cut tube
>> >> > end
>> >> > > that points to the ground. I also filled the vacuum
> operated port and
>> >> > > duplicated the snout/hose installation on the
drivers
> side of
>> >> the car. My
>> >> > > air cleaner air temp is marginally above ambient at
> speed. All this is
>> >> > > barely visible standing behind the car looking into
the
> engine
>> >> bay and to
>> >> > > the unknowing appears stock.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Tomas
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > From:
>> >> >  > To:
>> >> > > Cc:
>> >> > > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:32 PM
>> >> > > Subject: [DeTomaso] cooler air to carb
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > We have talked in the past about the gill area
and
> air flow over them
>> >> > and
>> >> > > > scoops and such. Is the feeling that area is a
> negative pressure area?
>> >> > > What I
>> >> > > > am wondering is if you drew air through vents
> there, without scoops
>> >> > > would it
>> >> > > > be drawn into the air filter/carb at speed or
> would it be a negative
>> >> > > > situation and actually be bad and reduce air
to
> the carb when
>> >>  at spped?
>> >> > > In stop and
>> >> > > > go traffic I assume it would be cooler air
than
> that in the engine
>> >> > > > compartment but could be bad a speed?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I am just wondering if there is a easy (a
relative
> term) to get air
>> >> > > cooler
>> >> > > > that the hot engine bay air into the carb
without
> changing the lines
>> >> > and
>> >> > > design
>> >> > > > of the car like scoops on the roof or gill
area.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > This would not reduce the circulation in the
> engine compartment of
>> >> > > course.
>> >> > > > For that you would have to vent like the fans
on
> the grill over the
>> >> > > engine as
>> >> > > > someone showed us pictures months back had
done.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Perhaps I am going over old ideas.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Richard
>> >> > > > 3714 72 Pre L
>> >> > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows
what's
> happening at your
>> >> > > destination.
>> >> > > > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try
it
> out
>> >> > > >
> (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)
>> >> > > >
_______________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Michael L. Shortt
>> >> > Savannah, Georgia
>> >> > www.michaelshortt.com
>> >> > michael at michaelshortt.com
>> >> > 912-232-9390
>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > *Mad Dawg Antenucci
>> >> > Team Pantera Racing*
>> >> > *The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open
road
> racing
>> >> > *www.teampanteraracing.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Michael L. Shortt
>> >> Savannah, Georgia
>> >> www.michaelshortt.com
>> >> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> >> 912-232-9390
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications
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