[DeTomaso] Panteras VS. Other collector cars

Tue Nov 18 17:59:33 EST 2008

Excellent point: every Pantera is unique.  

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
On Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:36 PM
To: partsman912 at aol.com
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Panteras VS. Other collector cars

If by original you mean, bone stock, R & R with only like parts with no
intent or desire to improve performance, handling, reliability or
creature
comfort...then I'd have to say that I have only seen one car like that
out
of more than 30 Panteras that I have inspected in person.

It was OK, I guess, if you liked that sorta thing.  But with a little
make
up, some snazzy clothes and a bit of nip and tuck, she could have been
so
much more.

Mike said it best in his eloquent response.

Using my analogy, they are fine as they were born, some get fixed up
using a
far different standard and look like they belong on Jerry Springer.
Others
get a little polish and are tastefully accessorized and can walk ( OK,
run )
the red carpets, hang out in the grotto by the pool or grace the pages
of
Town and Country.

It  just depends on who owns it, Flashy, Trashy, Sporty, Cruiser, Speed
Racer, Trailer Queen, or like mine,a combination or two, it's a car that
has
the ability to transform to it's owners desires.

911s can either be stock, a 73 RS duck tail, a rally car or a 959 body
kit,
throw in the Miami 935 lookalikes, the Ruf's etc.,  They have the same
ability to transform.

Corvettes get the same treatment, from Hillbilly Hot Rods to Callaway
versions..

But other than these three, I can't say the same about Lambos, Jags,
Aston
Martins, Ferraris,, they all appear to be basically stock with one or
two
exceptions.
even the BMW crowd is understated when it comes to mods that you can
see.

I see this ability as a positive.

When I see another Pantera for the first time, I look for the
differences
between it and mine, that gives lots of fodder for conversation and as
owners, we like nothing more than talking about our "babies".

I wonder what Biff and Trip talk about when they both show up driving a
F430?

"should I put the yellow logo on the side of the fender or not?"

"say, are those the new floor mats from the catalog"

"Wanna see my new key chain"

"How much was your 5K service?
"5K, I've only owned it 3 years, not quite there yet old chum"
Ha ha ha.

Michael in Savannah

On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 2:08 PM, <partsman912 at aol.com> wrote:

> Great responses !??
> ??Everyone has made?several valid points. But as time goes by these
seem to
> matter less and less. For example :
>
> "?American Engine in a Europeon Body "?? This has recently been used
in
> Sports Car Market Magazine as a reason that the recent sale of the
99K?
> Mangusta was well bought !? This is a good sign.
>
> "Car was flawed when new "?? Ask any Ferrari , Porsche , Jaquar ,
etc.? and
> they can all tell you that they all were . The Pantera actually has an
edge
> here as these flaws are easy to fix permanently.
>
> I don't "worry about value" for financial gain , but it does have
postive
> influence.I drive and autocross all of my cars , no garage queens
here, i
> don't even care to participate in car shows. ?Most of my experience is
in
> the ?Porsche marque , as values rise so do the cottage industrys
ability to
> make and supply reproduction parts . This keeps the cost of
restoration down
> and the frustration of locating parts.
>
> My observation is that there are so many modified Pantera's that it
appears
> fragmented with no continuity. Now first let me defend anyone who
wants to
> modify their car , I've done it numerous times? thats the owners
choice. But
> is it fair to say that there as more modified Panteras than original
ones
> ??????????????????? Mike Hartman
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ProvaMo.com <Pantera007 at provamo.com>
> To: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Cc: List <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 8:08 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Panteras? VS.? Other collector cars
>
>
>
> Here Here!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
[mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> On
> Behalf Of
> MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 10:17 PM
> To: Partsman912 at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Panteras? VS.? Other collector cars
>
>
> In a message dated 11/17/08 17 04 41, partsman912 at aol.com writes:
>
>
> > My question to experienced Pantera owners is this : Why is the
Pantera
> > being left behind in the collector car world compared to others in
its
> class
> ?? I
> > see several wonderful Panteras for sale at reasonable prices , that
> appear
> > to languish on the market with hardly any activity at all, to?be
relisted
> > again and again. This despite other marques that seem to create a
feeding
> frenzy
> > the minute they it the market .
> >
>
>
>
> If you're talking about specific cars, this can often be caused by
them
> being
> geographically remote (Nobody wants to buy a Pantera from Dodge City,
> Kansas,
> or some place like that).   Panteras near large population centers
normally
> command a decent price, but if it's out in the sticks, that's hard on
the
> sellers.   Doug Kelm, for instance, freaking *gave* his Pantera away,
just
> because
> he was selling it in Minnesota and he was unwilling to make the effort
to
> transport the car to a more favorable location.   He easily left $15K
on
> the
> table, and the car went to a VERY lucky buyer overseas, who was no
closer
> to
> Minnesota than he was to Los Angeles or San Jose or Houston or
whatever.
>
> There are a number of reasons the Pantera languishes behind its
bretheren
> in
> the marketplace generally, however.   What other people have said is
> true--the
> car got a bad rap when it was first released (well, actually, it was a
> well-deserved bad rap) because it was rushed to market, and it never
really
> overcame
> the stigmas of overheating, poor build quality etc.   This despite the
fact
> that by 1973, they really were excellent, turn-key cars right off the
> dealership floor.
>
> Some people have asserted that the American V-8 contributes
> to holding the
> values down.   That is only true indirectly, at least in this country.
> It's
> true overseas, because furreners are afraid of American V-8s (it's
> apparently
> easier to get Ferrari bits than Ford bits in France, for example).
But
> over
> here, simply having an American engine doesn't automatically hurt a
car's
> value.
>
>  For example, consider the Bizzarrini or the Iso Grifo.   Both are
> American-powered, yet both command much respect among the automotive
> cognescenti.
>
> A large, large part of the Pantera's problem can be attributed to a
small
> but
> highly visible part of the Pantera owner demographic--the
knuckle-draggers.
> While most Panteras are owned by upper middle class, educated people
with a
> passion for sports cars, quite a few have been owned by ignorant
louts.
> How
> many people on this forum have purchased Panteras that have been owned
by
> people like this?   We're talking trailer trash, the type of people
who
> just
> butcher these cars from front to back, with incredible hackery to the
> wiring,
> highly
> questionable mechanical modifications (usually because something broke
and
> the owners were unwilling or unable to fix it properly, so they just
> performed a
>
> kluge to get it down the road), garish and/or tasteless cosmetic
additions,
> etc. etc.
>
> (My Pantera had been owned by just such an individual, I might add).
>
> People on this forum have had to work very hard, after rescuing a
Pantera
> from one of these pinheads, to straighten out all the damage they have
> done.
> But prior to selling their car, these guys stank up enough car shows
to
> permanently tarnish the car's reputation.
>
> This isn't a question of financial worth, education or social status.
> This
> is question of class.   Not socioeconomic class--there are plenty of
poor
> people who have more class in their pinkies than rich people have in
their
> entire
> families.   But the knuckle-dragger Pantera owners I'm referring to,
> whether
> they are rich or poor, educated or not, were distinctly lacking in
class,
> and
> are an embarassment
>  to the rest of us.
>
> It is up to each one of us to help eradicate the negative stereotypes
that
> have been laid upon the Pantera generally, and Pantera owners
specifically.
> First of all, it's important to be educated about our own cars, so
that we
> can
> answer questions intelligently.   I remember one year at Concorso
Italiano,
> an
> owner was interviewed on the stage, and made it quite clear to
everyone
> that
> he was a complete goon, who knew nothing about his own car, or the
cars
> generally, and made some comments that were highly unflattering both
to
> himself
> and
> the Pantera.
>
> It's important to be respectful of the owners of other marques (well,
we
> can
> dog on Corvettes here on the forum, and play around with those guys at
> Silver
> State of course).   But pulling out your schwantz and taking a leak on
> somebody's Porsche while swilling your 24th beer (yes, I've seen it
happen)
> doesn't
> exactly endear us to anyone or impress anyone.   And, when leaving a
car
> show
> held on a beautiful golf course, sidestepping the clutch and tearing
out
> 100
> feet of fairway as you leave, flinging grass and dirt clods all over
the
> place
> (yes, I've seen that done too) has a similar negative impact.   That
sort
> of
> behavior is perceived as being 'typical Pantera owner' behavior,
sadly.
>
> Having said all that, I must say that we as a group have been helped
> greatly
> by people who exhibit what *I* consider to be 'typical Pantera owner'
> behavior.   One year coming home from Concorso Italiano, a Ferrari
F-40
> heaved
> all its
>
> oil overboard and was broken down on the side of a two-lane road.
> Hundreds
> of Ferraris drove right past this guy, but a convoy of Panteras
stopped,
> the
> PCNC tech crew went to work, Larry Stock drove back to the hotel and
came
> back
> with his flat bed tow truck, and I know they managed to fix his car
and
> send
> him down the road.
>
> I've seen that sort of thing more than once, with Pantera guys
pitching in
> to
> help fix somebody else's non-Pantera, or otherwise lending a hand in a
time
> of need.
>
> And the small bu
> t highly visible Pantera contingent at Silver State, Big Bend
> etc. is respected not only for the quality of their cars (Dan
Courtney's
> excepted, HAH!), but also for their genuine enthusiasm and
friendliness.
>
> On an unrelated note, automotive purists generally are put off by cars
> which
> are modified, and because of the Pantera's very nature, a substantial
> percentage of them have been extensively altered.   While many of
these
> mechanical and
>
> even cosmetic modifications are positive in nature, genuinely
improving the
> cars, those who take the Pantera to be an Italian Street Rod
(completely
> bedecked with chrome, flashy paint etc.) are looked down upon by the
> Porsche,
> Ferrari etc. purists.
>
> To me though, that is the beauty of the Pantera.   It is the nearest
thing
> to
> an automotive chameleon I've ever seen, with examples running the
gamut
> from
> exotic Italian supercar, to gutted-out road racer, to blinged-out
> no-go-showboat street rods.   About which other car can such a thing
be
> said?
>
> And finally, when lamenting the values of our cars, you can console
> yourself
> with this fact--at least it's not a Maserati.   For completely
different
> reasons, Maseratis (at least of the same vintage as the Pantera) get
even
> less
> respect.   A Maserati Merak, for instance, is arguably a much more
exotic
> car
> than
> a Pantera, yet they command very little value.   Asking prices
> notwithstanding, the reality is that $20K will buy you a
concours-perfect
> Merak.
> Bora
> values are about the same as a Pantera, even though, again, it's
arguably a
> much
>
> more exotic car, with an Italian four-cam V8, hydraulic everything,
etc.
>
> You literally can't give a Quattroporte away, unless it's flawless,
and
> even
> then it will struggle to achieve $10K.
>
> So those guys have their own set of problems, completely unrelated to
ours
> for the most part.
>
> In the end, although I wish the Pantera received more respect from the
> world
> generally, I'm glad they are where they are.   The fact that they
aren't
> six-figure cars means they can be enjoyed and drive
> n, as they were meant to be,
> instead of being endlessly polished and primped and preened and talked
> about,
> the
> way most contemporary Ferraris, Lamborghinis etc. are.
>
> And although I obviously have no use for the knuckle-dragger clan,
overall
> I'd have to say that Pantera owners, as a group, are just about the
finest
> people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.   Covering a wide
> cross-section
> of
> society, they are almost universally wonderful folks--what Sarah Palin
> would
> consider "Real American" people (and that includes the Eurodudes,
Aussies
> and
> Japanese owners as well).
>
> So, in the end, don't worry about what other people say or think about
our
> cars.   We know what they are, what their strengths and weaknesses
are, and
> we
> can live with them, and be happy with them.
>
> And that's what it's all about!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390

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