[DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)

Mad Dog Antenucci teampantera at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 17 10:55:57 EDT 2008


Jimbo,
   
  Your kidding me right?! ;-]> Yea, laydown. I'd call Gary Hall and the first words out of his mouth were, 'bring it back and I will replace it'........ and the second words out of his mouth was 'wot did you do to it?" <grin>
   
  md
   
   
Jim Wallace <pantera_4220 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Dennis,

Just checking. The Hall Phoenix # 3 was that the lay down radiator? Areyou saying that there were quality assurance issues and leaking problems with it? 

I have replaced two and the third one is also leaking. WTF....can you provide me with some insight from your end?

Jim


--- On Tue, 6/17/08, Mike Trusty wrote:

> From: Mike Trusty 
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)
> To: "'Mad Dog Antenucci'" 
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2008, 8:16 AM
> I know everyone is tired of hearing this but assuming that
> your radiator
> isn't stopped up, if you would apply the modifications
> to your cooling
> systems that are outlined in John Taphorn's article you
> will resolve your
> problems. When I recommended these changes to John I had
> applied them to
> numerous cars with overheating problems and they were ALL
> resolved. Several
> people here on the forum have installed this system with
> the same results,
> it works. This isn't reinventing the wheel but simply
> putting in a proven
> system that works replacing a system that was a bad design
> in the first
> place.
> 
> Here is yet another example that I observed just last
> Sunday. My friend,
> Jack Houpe, bought a SPF GT40 at the same time that I did. 
> We also wrangled
> Kirby Schrader, who we all know and love, into buying one
> at the same time.
> Kirby is using the stock cooling arrangement that the
> completion guys are
> doing to these cars. Jack installed the system as
> described in the article.
> Kirby is having overheating problems in traffic. Sunday
> Jack set in line
> for almost an hour creeping forward and waiting to get into
> the Shelby meet
> show in Tulsa. It was 90F degree hot outside. The fans
> would cycle and the
> motor never got over 90C. It simply works. Same cars,
> same radiators, same
> big horsepower motors, different cooling layout. One
> overheats and the
> other doesn't. Yes, flow rates, idle flow versus cruise
> flow, radiator
> thickness, baffles, shrouds, on and on and on all have
> something to do with
> the performance of the system. But, trust me, the design
> of the stock
> system is faulty. The pressure cap should NOT be on the
> high pressure side
> of the motor and the design/tolerances of the Cleveland
> thermostat
> arrangement will result in problems unless everything is
> exactly right. My
> recommendation, as it was to John, is to make the
> modifications that are
> outlined in his article and you will be amazed at how few,
> if any, other
> modifications that you will need to make.
> 
> Mike Trusty Engineering
> 15119 Gorgeous View Trail
> Little Rock, AR 72210
> Ph: 501-224-9013
> Fax: 501-421-0151
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mark skwarek [mailto:ehpantera at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:49 PM
> To: Mad Dog Antenucci
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)
> 
> MD,
> Cooling Panteras is always an interesting discussion. Can
> you give us the
> specs to your cooling system and part numbers? 
> Did you increase the dia of the cooling tubes? Size?
> What size oil cooler are you using? 
> What water pump are you using? 
> Specs on the radiator. 
> How did you plumb it so that you have only one tank? 
> Do you have A/C and if so where is the condenser located? 
> I'm sure many are working with there own
> cooling problems and would
> like knowing the specifice of what seems to work for you. 
> Mark
> 
> --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Mad Dog Antenucci
> <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Mad Dog Antenucci
> <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)
> To: "Ken Green"
> <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, detomaso at realbig.com,
> "Dennis
> Antenucci" <teampantera at msn.com>
> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:25 PM
> 
> Thanks Ken for the Specs....now everyone knows stoopid!
> ;-]>
> 
> Seriously thanks again for supporting the out of the box
> thinking on the
> cooling challenges
> I'd agree with Ron Davis that there are better
> options for a aftermarket
> radiator then what we used but for whatever reasons we have
> labored here on
> the
> List they work. 
> 
> Definately agree with Richard, Goran and others on the
> subject of flow of
> air
> over and out of the radiator. Purpose of beating everyone
> over the head on
> the
> RAD subject was to get everyone including our List
> Professors to think out
> of
> the box on the challenges of cooling.
> 
> As Mike Trusty says everything on a street Pantera is a
> compromise. So all
> I
> wanted was the most effective cooling at ALL speeds. My
> Pantera is not a
> race
> car. The radiator ALONE did not get us there, neither did
> adding taller
> gears....Neither did the hood or mods to water pump etc. 
> 
> My compromises were that I needed the cooling system to
> not just work on
> the
> street but to work in SoCal or Nevada or the better Texas
> stop-n-go traffic
> ;-]
> 
> but also work at 150-180 mph on a 100F day headed into a
> 15-30 mph
> headwind
> with a 550-600 HP iron blocked Cleveland. 
> 
> One correction to your last statement here and that is
> regarding my
> previous
> radiators. They did in fact all work well from 85-05 with
> the following
> 'qualifications';
> 
> Stock Rad - Worked great as long as the car was moving!
> Added Hall Phoenix
> unit in 95..think it was built in LA for Hall by Griffith
> <?>...all of
> them were leakers
> 
> Hall Phoenix #1 - Brass Radiator purpose built by Gary
> Hall...Worked great
> for Silver State (200-210F) up to 150 mph and 20 minute
> track conditions but
> was marginal for the street....temps with 2 fans working
> was 230-240F. NOTE:
> Ran the front 'hood-stops' up an inch on advise of
> Junior Wilson at my
> first ORR.
> 
> Hall Phoenix #2 - Added a 3rd fan (sound familiar?) for
> the street - no
> difference in cooling...BUT now it is running 10-20F hotter
> at WOT in open
> road
> race conditions (140-165 mph)...again ran the hood-stops up
> an inch. 
> 
> Hall Phoenix #3 - Added due to continued QA/leaking
> problems...added Hall
> hood vents...NO DIFFERENCE in cooling in traffic, track or
> orr conditions
> 
> Fluidyne Rad #4 - ALUMINUM FLUIDYNE with 2 suckers on
> backside. Actually
> ran
> COOLER on the street and in heavy/hot traffic and did okay
> in open road race
> conditions but ran HOTTER then the brass radiator on speeds
> above
> 150....flow
> could not keep up with conditions and orr temps would go to
> 240F before I
> would
> back off. This was with taller gears, a vented stock hood
> but NOT the hood I
> have been using since 2006
> 
> Ron Davis #5 - ALUMINIUM (Ron Davis Craftman Truck
> Series) as Ken
> described
> below added in 2006
> 180-190F in normal traffic.......going to as hot as
> 200-210F in stop-n-go
> heavy traffic but NO higher even after an hour....running
> 180-190F in open
> track and 200-210 in ORR up to 180 Mph where as water temp
> actually started
> going DOWN UNDER 200F above 160-165 mph.
> No additional changes to gears and there was no
> difference in temps going
> to
> IR-EFI system.
> 
> Dawg
> 
> 
> 
> Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Several people have asked about the radiator Dennis has
> been running the
> past 2
> years. I picked up two of these as targets of opportunity.
> The seller said
> they
> were new Ron Davis radiators from a Craftsman Truck team
> that made some
> changes. I also talked to the Tech guy at Ron Davis. They
> are as follows:
> 
> Single pass
> 4 core (comes out to 6 inches thick
> 30 1/4 inches wide at the widest point (the bottom side are
> tapered some)
> 16 inches tall
> 
> They barely fit, and required removing any metal brackets
> around them, and
> maybe a little metal pounding.
> 
> They are specifically super speedway radiators, made for
> high speed use at
> 200
> + MPH
> 
> The guy at Ron Davis did NOT recommend them for street use
> because it would
> be
> hard to draw enough air through them to keep them cool
> below 100 MPH.
> 
> Maybe Dennis can add some more, from his recent posts it
> appears that they
> work
> great at all speeds, but that's in his car, your
> results may vary. I think
> Dennis switched to this radiator without motor changes, and
> the results were
> better than hoped for. But, Dennis also opened up his hood
> to allow a
> portion
> if the radiator air flow to escape. I think I was talking
> to Richard Barkley
> Saturday, and he said when he ran his engine with the hood
> open the fans did
> not come on, and with the hood closed, the engine heated
> up, and they came
> on.
> The suggests that for Dennis's results, you need to
> open up the hood.
> 
> My theory is that a big single pass radiator is good in a
> Pantera because
> there
> is less restriction to flow (the long pipes probably add
> enough
> restriction),
> and the large volume provides a long dwell time. This goes
> against the logic
> that you need a high flow velocity to get turbulent flow,
> but maybe the
> design
> helps that. At idle, it seems like the flow would be really
> slow, But then
> there is the long dwell time to offset the loss of mixing
> from turbulence
> (just
> guessing).
> 
> It is my understanding that no previous radiator worked for
> Dennis the way
> these do. So if you want to cruise at 170 for 100 miles, it
> may be a
> solution. 
> 
> Ken
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> 
> Mad Dawg Antenucci 
> Team Pantera Racing 
> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in
> open road racing 
> www.teampanteraracing.com
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Mad Dawg Antenucci 
Team Pantera Racing 
  The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing 
www.teampanteraracing.com



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