[DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)

Tue Jun 17 08:16:13 EDT 2008

I know everyone is tired of hearing this but assuming that your radiator
isn't stopped up, if you would apply the modifications to your cooling
systems that are outlined in John Taphorn's article you will resolve your
problems.  When I recommended these changes to John I had applied them to
numerous cars with overheating problems and they were ALL resolved.  Several
people here on the forum have installed this system with the same results,
it works.  This isn't reinventing the wheel but simply putting in a proven
system that works replacing a system that was a bad design in the first
place.

Here is yet another example that I observed just last Sunday.  My friend,
Jack Houpe, bought a SPF GT40 at the same time that I did.  We also wrangled
Kirby Schrader, who we all know and love, into buying one at the same time.
Kirby is using the stock cooling arrangement that the completion guys are
doing to these cars.  Jack installed the system as described in the article.
Kirby is having overheating problems in traffic.  Sunday Jack set in line
for almost an hour creeping forward and waiting to get into the Shelby meet
show in Tulsa.  It was 90F degree hot outside.  The fans would cycle and the
motor never got over 90C.  It simply works.  Same cars, same radiators, same
big horsepower motors, different cooling layout.  One overheats and the
other doesn't. Yes, flow rates, idle flow versus cruise flow, radiator
thickness, baffles, shrouds, on and on and on all have something to do with
the performance of the system.  But, trust me, the design of the stock
system is faulty.  The pressure cap should NOT be on the high pressure side
of the motor and the design/tolerances of the Cleveland thermostat
arrangement will result in problems unless everything is exactly right.  My
recommendation, as it was to John, is to make the modifications that are
outlined in his article and you will be amazed at how few, if any, other
modifications that you will need to make.

Mike Trusty Engineering
15119 Gorgeous View Trail
Little Rock, AR  72210
Ph:  501-224-9013
Fax: 501-421-0151

-----Original Message-----
From: mark skwarek [mailto:ehpantera at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:49 PM
To: Mad Dog Antenucci
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)

MD,
Cooling Panteras is always an interesting discussion. Can you give us the
specs to your cooling system and part numbers? 
Did you increase the dia of the cooling tubes? Size?
What size oil cooler are you using? 
What water pump are you using? 
Specs on the radiator. 
How did you plumb it so that you have only one tank? 
Do you have A/C and if so where is the condenser located? 
I'm sure many are working with there own cooling problems and would
like knowing the specifice of what seems to work for you. 
Mark

--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] MDs Radiators (1985 to 2008)
To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, detomaso at realbig.com, "Dennis
Antenucci" <teampantera at msn.com>
Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:25 PM

Thanks Ken for the Specs....now everyone knows stoopid! ;-]>

  Seriously thanks again for supporting the out of the box thinking on the
cooling challenges
  I'd agree with Ron Davis that there are better options for a aftermarket
radiator then what we used but for whatever reasons we have labored here on
the
List they work. 

  Definately agree with Richard, Goran and others on the subject of flow of
air
over and out of the radiator. Purpose of beating everyone over the head on
the
RAD subject was to get everyone including our List Professors to think out
of
the box on the challenges of cooling.

  As Mike Trusty says everything on a street Pantera is a compromise. So all
I
wanted was the  most effective cooling at ALL speeds. My Pantera is not a
race
car. The radiator ALONE did not get us there, neither did adding taller
gears....Neither did the hood or mods to water pump etc. 

  My compromises were that I needed the cooling system to not just work on
the
street but to work in SoCal or Nevada or the better Texas stop-n-go traffic
;-]

  but  also work at 150-180 mph on a 100F day headed into a 15-30 mph
headwind
with a 550-600 HP iron blocked Cleveland. 

  One correction to your last statement here and that is regarding my
previous
radiators. They did in fact all work well from 85-05 with the following
'qualifications';

  Stock Rad - Worked great as long as the car was moving! Added Hall Phoenix
unit in 95..think it was built in LA for Hall by Griffith <?>...all of
them were leakers

  Hall Phoenix #1 - Brass Radiator purpose built by Gary Hall...Worked great
for Silver State (200-210F) up to 150 mph and 20 minute track conditions but
was marginal for the street....temps with 2 fans working was 230-240F. NOTE:
Ran the front 'hood-stops' up an inch on advise of Junior Wilson at my
first ORR.

  Hall Phoenix #2 - Added a 3rd fan (sound familiar?) for the street - no
difference in cooling...BUT now it is running 10-20F hotter at WOT in open
road
race conditions (140-165 mph)...again ran the hood-stops up an inch. 

  Hall Phoenix #3 - Added due to continued QA/leaking problems...added Hall
hood vents...NO DIFFERENCE in cooling in traffic, track or orr conditions

  Fluidyne Rad #4 - ALUMINUM FLUIDYNE with 2 suckers on backside. Actually
ran
COOLER on the street and in heavy/hot traffic and did okay in open road race
conditions but ran HOTTER then the brass radiator on speeds above
150....flow
could not keep up with conditions and orr temps would go to 240F before I
would
back off. This was with taller gears, a vented stock hood but NOT the hood I
have been using since 2006

  Ron Davis #5 - ALUMINIUM (Ron Davis Craftman Truck Series) as Ken
described
below added in 2006
  180-190F in normal traffic.......going to as hot as 200-210F in stop-n-go
heavy traffic but NO higher even after an hour....running 180-190F in open
track and 200-210 in ORR up to 180 Mph where as water temp actually started
going DOWN UNDER 200F above 160-165 mph.
  No additional changes to gears and there was no difference in temps going
to
IR-EFI system.

  Dawg

Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

Several people have asked about the radiator Dennis has been running the
past 2
years. I picked up two of these as targets of opportunity. The seller said
they
were new Ron Davis radiators from a Craftsman Truck team that made some
changes. I also talked to the Tech guy at Ron Davis. They are as follows:

Single pass
4 core (comes out to 6 inches thick
30 1/4 inches wide at the widest point (the bottom side are tapered some)
16 inches tall

They barely fit, and required removing any metal brackets around them, and
maybe a little metal pounding.

They are specifically super speedway radiators, made for high speed use at
200
+ MPH

The guy at Ron Davis did NOT recommend them for street use because it would
be
hard to draw enough air through them to keep them cool below 100 MPH.

Maybe Dennis can add some more, from his recent posts it appears that they
work
great at all speeds, but that's in his car, your results may vary. I think
Dennis switched to this radiator without motor changes, and the results were
better than hoped for. But, Dennis also opened up his hood to allow a
portion
if the radiator air flow to escape. I think I was talking to Richard Barkley
Saturday, and he said when he ran his engine with the hood open the fans did
not come on, and with the hood closed, the engine heated up, and they came
on.
The suggests that for Dennis's results, you need to open up the hood.

My theory is that a big single pass radiator is good in a Pantera because
there
is less restriction to flow (the long pipes probably add enough
restriction),
and the large volume provides a long dwell time. This goes against the logic
that you need a high flow velocity to get turbulent flow, but maybe the
design
helps that. At idle, it seems like the flow would be really slow, But then
there is the long dwell time to offset the loss of mixing from turbulence
(just
guessing).

It is my understanding that no previous radiator worked for Dennis the way
these do. So if you want to cruise at 170 for 100 miles, it may be a
solution. 

Ken
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Mad Dawg Antenucci 
Team Pantera Racing 
  The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing 
www.teampanteraracing.com
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