[DeTomaso] Wanted, 71 or 72, Which To Buy?

[Tomas Gunnarsson]

Just to stir things up I'd like to add that my car (#2004 July ´71) presumably has its original trans. It's a Dash-1 and uses the "Mangusta gearing" described below except for 5th where it has the .705. I wouldn't be so sure that the second wave of pantera Dash-1s has the Dash-2 gearing as Mike says. I asked for a .846 4th at RBT but it was not available. Unfortunately you can't install a .846 5th gear set in the 4th gear position either.

Tomas

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: <claywillmott at hotmail.com>; <artstephens at charter.net>; <eanderson at geotracinternational.com>; <garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wanted, 71 or 72, Which To Buy?


> In a message dated 7/30/08 17 30 6, claywillmott at hotmail.com writes:
> 
> 
>> Only 1st,3rd, and 4th are different. The fifth gear and final drive are 
>> the same for Dash 1 and 2 so there should not be any difference at speed.
>> All ratios are listed on the RBT website.
>> 
> 
> Uh...no.   That's completely wrong. :<(
> 
> The ratios listed on the RBT site are what Lloyd CURRENTLY offers in his 
> new-production gearboxes, which has no bearing whatsoever on what these were built 
> with 35-40 years ago.
> 
> Many early Panteras were built using leftover Mangusta gearboxes, which were 
> converted to Pantera specification by ZF.   Their gear ratios were:
> 
> 1st:   2.42
> 2nd:   1.47
> 3rd:   1.09
> 4th:   0.958
> 5th:   0.846
> Reverse:   2.86
> Final drive:   4.22:1
> 
>>From the fall of 1971 (or so), they were:
> 
> 1st:   2.23
> 2nd:   1.47
> 3rd:   1.041
> 4th:   0.846
> 5th:   0.705
> Reverse:   2.87
> Final drive:   4.22:1
> 
> So, the early Pantera 5th gear was the same as the later Pantera 4th gear 
> (and many believe the later Pantera 5th gear is still too short!)
> 
>> I went to check my 5th gear (I have an early 71 #1343) and the plate states 
> 0.84 despite the RBT site for a Dash-1 stating .705. 
> 
>>>>See above.   You obviously have an original, untouched early or 
> intermediate Dash-1 gearbox.
> 
> >Are there several different models or styles by date for the Dash-1 family 
> and what is the Dash-0? 
> 
>>>>Yes, there were several different variations on the gearboxes during the 
> early days of production, due to the fact that much of the initial build was 
> comprised of leftover Mangusta gearboxes.
> 
> (The Dash-0 gearbox was the initial ZF gearbox that ZF designed and built 
> especially for the Ford GT40 program, starting in late 1964/early 1965).
> 
> The first Pantera prototypes were issued gearboxes with the part number 1031 
> 001 056.   Only two of these gearboxes were built in December 1969; they had 
> the low gearing.   These were for the first two show cars.
> 
> The next gearbox was the 1031 001 059.   Ten of these gearboxes were ordered 
> for delivery in the first week of March, 1970 for use in the initial 
> testing/evaluation prototypes.   In fact ZF had to build 13 gearboxes to fill this 
> initial order because three of them had to be scrapped due to bad input shafts 
> (they were hand-making the input shafts then).
> 
> The next cars were issued transaxles with part number 1031 001 060.   
> Initially only 60 of these gearboxes were to be built, but given ZF's parts on-hand, 
> this order was increased to 80; delivery of the first 40 was scheduled for 
> August 14th, 1970 with the remaining 40 by the end of that month.   These were 
> made using surplus existing Mangusta gearboxes that were shipped from De Tomaso 
> in Italy back to ZF in Germany for conversion for Pantera use.   
> 
> The side flanges on the differential were made of aluminum instead of steel 
> castings; these aluminum sideplates are very rare, especially in light of the 
> fact that due to the tail mounting of the transaxle, they were subject to 
> stress and frequently cracked under load.   These were actually leftover GT40 
> (Dash-0) gearbox parts.   Although the original scheme was to make them all this 
> way, after quickly experiencing failures, they went back to using cast iron.
> 
> Note:   Mangusta production was scheduled to be phased out from January to 
> March, 1971, but in fact at least a few cars were apparently built in 1971 
> (including all ten right-hand-drive Mangustas), so De Tomaso had to keep some 
> Mangusta gearboxes on-hand to fulfill orders.   Evidently they had purchased a 
> bunch of gearboxes for the Mangusta program up-front, and calculated that not all 
> of them would be necessary once the Pantera program got going, so a percentage 
> of them were recycled for Pantera use.
> 
> Starting in September 1970, ZF shipped yet another variation of the gearbox, 
> this one part number 1031 001 061.   The original contract was for 451 of them 
> to be produced, but in light of the increased production of the 060 version, 
> the order was reduced to 411.   These Dash-1 gearboxes were to be built with 
> the later gearing (i.e. .846 4th, and .705 5th).
> 
> These were all variations of the Dash-1 gearbox.   
> 
> The finalized, definitive Pantera-spec gearbox was the Dash-2; this was part 
> number 1031 002 001.   De Tomaso placed an order for 720 of these gearboxes on 
> Feb 23, 1970; in July of that year, ZF promised that they would start 
> delivering them at the end of March/early April 1971.   
> 
> Ford had grand ambitions for the Pantera program, projecting sales of 5000 
> cars per year, which would have required ZF to deliver more than 400 gearboxes 
> per month.   They had issued a request for proposal to ZF for the supply of a 
> total of 15,000 gearboxes over the three-year period 1971-1973.   ZF knew that 
> they could not fulfill this requirement and were very public about that fact, 
> so in March, 1970, two representatives from Ford traveled to Israel (!) and 
> met with representatives from a company called Ashot-Ashkelon.   There they drew 
> up a deal whereby the Israeli company would manufacture the gears and 
> differential parts, which would then be shipped to Germany for ZF who would install 
> them in the gearboxes.
> 
> By October of 1970, it became apparent that the sales projections were rather 
> optimistic, to say the least.   At the same time, ZF upped their production 
> projections based upon improved performance of their local gear-producing 
> subcontractors, and determined that they could build at least 60 gearboxes a month 
> in-house.   So the deal with Ashot-Ashkelon was scrapped.   
> 
> However, there were some political considerations that needed attention.   
> The deal with Ashot came about at least partly because of a tariff system in 
> place in Israel which limited imports by Ford-Israel.   Local Content Credits had 
> been negotiated, with the result that if Ashot produced parts for some 400 ZF 
> gearboxes a month under the auspices of a Ford project, Ford-Israel would be 
> allowed to import an additional 3000-4000 Ford-Europe cars (Escort etc.) into 
> Israel.   When the Pantera program sales projections (and thus ZF gearbox 
> production projections) scaled back, Ford and ZF quickly renegotiated the 
> contract, shifting the proposed Pantera gear production towards other ZF projects, as 
> well as parts to be supplied to Ford-Europe and Ford-USA Truck Operations, 
> which qualified equally for the Local Content Credits.
> 
> >Lloyd did say that a decent Dash-1 was worth 8-9 grand and that they were 
> sturdier than the Dash-2 models though.   I don't think you can buy the taller 
> 5th gear for these early gear boxes or if you can it is not as simple as you 
> might think. I was told it may be cheaper to swap for a Dash-2 than to try to 
> change only one gear. 
> 
>>>>Well, it depends on what you're trying to do.   Also, Dash-2 gearboxes 
> have now become quite popular due to the recent explosion in the GT40 replica 
> market, so even finding a Dash-2 gearbox might be next to impossible.
> 
> >I looked at changing the final drive ratio but was afraid it would 
> drastically affect take off unless I put in a massive stroker. Anyone changed final 
> drive with a normal engine and been happy with it?
> 
>>>>You haven't phrased your question properly.   The real question is, "Has 
> anybody changed the final drive with a normal engine AND the early, Mangusta 
> gearing?"   The answer is probably no.
> 
> My spitball analysis is that you would be best off switching to a 3.77 ring 
> and pinion.   That, coupled with your ridiculously low internal gearing, would 
> probably roughly equate to what the later gearboxes had with the taller 
> gearing and the 4.22 ring and pinion.
> 
> In fact, a few moments spent with the ZF gear calculator Excel spreadsheet on 
> the www.panteraplace.com site reveals the following:
> 
> With the later gearing of the Dash-2 gearbox, with a 4.22 ring and pinion, 
> the speed in gears per 1000 rpm works out to:
> 
> 8      13    18     22     26
> 
> While with your gearing and a 3.77 ring and pinion, the speed in gears per 
> 1000 rpm works out to:
> 
> 9     14     19     22     25
> 
> Pretty damn close!   If you can fit a 3.77 ring and pinion into your gearbox 
> (and I'm fairly certain you can), then for sure that is the way to go.
> 
>>The main issue with early 71 cars I have experienced is when you order parts 
> for a 71 they may not fit. For example you can't put camber locks on the 
> front without a lot of changing things up as early 71 models do not accept shims 
> and glass/trim pieces are hard to come by. However, at Wilkinsons or Quella's 
> if you tell them exactly what car you have they are very good about knowing 
> all these little details. 
> 
>>>>Exactly true.   You have to be VERY specific however, when you have an 
> early car like yours, giving them the VIN, plus any other details that might be 
> relevant.   Having detailed familiarity with your own car will be helpful 
> before placing an order; they might ask you for a specific measurement (such as on 
> the front A-arms) for example.
> 
> Many early Panteras had their gearboxes switched out from Dash-1 to Dash-2 
> under warranty.   This was a total scam pulled by the Ford dealers.   Ford 
> somehow got it into their mind that there was a defect in the early gearboxes, when 
> in fact the only problem was caused by poor clutch adjustment.   Ford issued 
> a bulletin to the dealers and said they would pay them to replace any 'bad' 
> gearbox under warranty.
> 
> Dealers instantly lit up and saw dollar signs, because this was a big job and 
> they got paid well for it.   So, every Pantera that rolled through the 
> dealership for a routine service was diagnosed with a 'bad' gearbox.   The service 
> manager would tell the owner, "Hey, Ford has produced a new, better 
> transmission and we will replace your existing one for free.   Would you like one?"   Of 
> course every owner said yes.
> 
> So, perfectly good Dash-1 gearboxes were pulled out and replaced with Dash-2 
> units, and Ford wound up getting stuck with the bill each time.   Many years 
> ago, I spoke with a service tech who worked at a big L-M dealership in Long 
> Beach, I think.   He said that they did this as a matter of course, sometimes not 
> even telling the customer about it beforehand.   They would then file a claim 
> with Ford and get reimbursed for all the labor costs.
> 
> He said that there was a stack of 30-40 Dash-1 gearboxes out behind the 
> dealership at one point, and then one day they were all just whisked away to the 
> crusher. :<(
> 
> That's why it's not very common to find early cars like yours with original, 
> low-ratio gearboxes.
> 
> Mike (who had to dig WAY deep into his De Tomaso history archives, reading 
> individual memos, reports, and purchase orders between Ray Geddes, ZF, the 
> Israeli Minister of Finance, Henry Ford, Alejandro De Tomaso, as well as various 
> Ford engineers involved in the Pantera program, to get all this data together...
> .)
> 
> 
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