[DeTomaso] Wanted, 71 or 72, Which To Buy?
John Taphorn
jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
Wed Jul 30 23:09:07 EDT 2008
Wow Mike - That was a treasure trove of information.
Thanks
JT
----- Original Message -----
From: <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: <claywillmott at hotmail.com>; <artstephens at charter.net>;
<eanderson at geotracinternational.com>; <garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>;
<detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wanted, 71 or 72, Which To Buy?
>
> In a message dated 7/30/08 17 30 6, claywillmott at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>> Only 1st,3rd, and 4th are different. The fifth gear and final drive are
>> the same for Dash 1 and 2 so there should not be any difference at speed.
>> All ratios are listed on the RBT website.
>>
>
> Uh...no. That's completely wrong. :<(
>
> The ratios listed on the RBT site are what Lloyd CURRENTLY offers in his
> new-production gearboxes, which has no bearing whatsoever on what these
> were built
> with 35-40 years ago.
>
> Many early Panteras were built using leftover Mangusta gearboxes, which
> were
> converted to Pantera specification by ZF. Their gear ratios were:
>
> 1st: 2.42
> 2nd: 1.47
> 3rd: 1.09
> 4th: 0.958
> 5th: 0.846
> Reverse: 2.86
> Final drive: 4.22:1
>
>>From the fall of 1971 (or so), they were:
>
> 1st: 2.23
> 2nd: 1.47
> 3rd: 1.041
> 4th: 0.846
> 5th: 0.705
> Reverse: 2.87
> Final drive: 4.22:1
>
> So, the early Pantera 5th gear was the same as the later Pantera 4th gear
> (and many believe the later Pantera 5th gear is still too short!)
>
>> I went to check my 5th gear (I have an early 71 #1343) and the plate
>> states
> 0.84 despite the RBT site for a Dash-1 stating .705.
>
>>>>See above. You obviously have an original, untouched early or
> intermediate Dash-1 gearbox.
>
> >Are there several different models or styles by date for the Dash-1
> >family
> and what is the Dash-0?
>
>>>>Yes, there were several different variations on the gearboxes during the
> early days of production, due to the fact that much of the initial build
> was
> comprised of leftover Mangusta gearboxes.
>
> (The Dash-0 gearbox was the initial ZF gearbox that ZF designed and built
> especially for the Ford GT40 program, starting in late 1964/early 1965).
>
> The first Pantera prototypes were issued gearboxes with the part number
> 1031
> 001 056. Only two of these gearboxes were built in December 1969; they
> had
> the low gearing. These were for the first two show cars.
>
> The next gearbox was the 1031 001 059. Ten of these gearboxes were
> ordered
> for delivery in the first week of March, 1970 for use in the initial
> testing/evaluation prototypes. In fact ZF had to build 13 gearboxes to
> fill this
> initial order because three of them had to be scrapped due to bad input
> shafts
> (they were hand-making the input shafts then).
>
> The next cars were issued transaxles with part number 1031 001 060.
> Initially only 60 of these gearboxes were to be built, but given ZF's
> parts on-hand,
> this order was increased to 80; delivery of the first 40 was scheduled for
> August 14th, 1970 with the remaining 40 by the end of that month. These
> were
> made using surplus existing Mangusta gearboxes that were shipped from De
> Tomaso
> in Italy back to ZF in Germany for conversion for Pantera use.
>
> The side flanges on the differential were made of aluminum instead of
> steel
> castings; these aluminum sideplates are very rare, especially in light of
> the
> fact that due to the tail mounting of the transaxle, they were subject to
> stress and frequently cracked under load. These were actually leftover
> GT40
> (Dash-0) gearbox parts. Although the original scheme was to make them
> all this
> way, after quickly experiencing failures, they went back to using cast
> iron.
>
> Note: Mangusta production was scheduled to be phased out from January to
> March, 1971, but in fact at least a few cars were apparently built in 1971
> (including all ten right-hand-drive Mangustas), so De Tomaso had to keep
> some
> Mangusta gearboxes on-hand to fulfill orders. Evidently they had
> purchased a
> bunch of gearboxes for the Mangusta program up-front, and calculated that
> not all
> of them would be necessary once the Pantera program got going, so a
> percentage
> of them were recycled for Pantera use.
>
> Starting in September 1970, ZF shipped yet another variation of the
> gearbox,
> this one part number 1031 001 061. The original contract was for 451 of
> them
> to be produced, but in light of the increased production of the 060
> version,
> the order was reduced to 411. These Dash-1 gearboxes were to be built
> with
> the later gearing (i.e. .846 4th, and .705 5th).
>
> These were all variations of the Dash-1 gearbox.
>
> The finalized, definitive Pantera-spec gearbox was the Dash-2; this was
> part
> number 1031 002 001. De Tomaso placed an order for 720 of these
> gearboxes on
> Feb 23, 1970; in July of that year, ZF promised that they would start
> delivering them at the end of March/early April 1971.
>
> Ford had grand ambitions for the Pantera program, projecting sales of 5000
> cars per year, which would have required ZF to deliver more than 400
> gearboxes
> per month. They had issued a request for proposal to ZF for the supply
> of a
> total of 15,000 gearboxes over the three-year period 1971-1973. ZF knew
> that
> they could not fulfill this requirement and were very public about that
> fact,
> so in March, 1970, two representatives from Ford traveled to Israel (!)
> and
> met with representatives from a company called Ashot-Ashkelon. There
> they drew
> up a deal whereby the Israeli company would manufacture the gears and
> differential parts, which would then be shipped to Germany for ZF who
> would install
> them in the gearboxes.
>
> By October of 1970, it became apparent that the sales projections were
> rather
> optimistic, to say the least. At the same time, ZF upped their
> production
> projections based upon improved performance of their local gear-producing
> subcontractors, and determined that they could build at least 60 gearboxes
> a month
> in-house. So the deal with Ashot-Ashkelon was scrapped.
>
> However, there were some political considerations that needed attention.
> The deal with Ashot came about at least partly because of a tariff system
> in
> place in Israel which limited imports by Ford-Israel. Local Content
> Credits had
> been negotiated, with the result that if Ashot produced parts for some 400
> ZF
> gearboxes a month under the auspices of a Ford project, Ford-Israel would
> be
> allowed to import an additional 3000-4000 Ford-Europe cars (Escort etc.)
> into
> Israel. When the Pantera program sales projections (and thus ZF gearbox
> production projections) scaled back, Ford and ZF quickly renegotiated the
> contract, shifting the proposed Pantera gear production towards other ZF
> projects, as
> well as parts to be supplied to Ford-Europe and Ford-USA Truck Operations,
> which qualified equally for the Local Content Credits.
>
> >Lloyd did say that a decent Dash-1 was worth 8-9 grand and that they were
> sturdier than the Dash-2 models though. I don't think you can buy the
> taller
> 5th gear for these early gear boxes or if you can it is not as simple as
> you
> might think. I was told it may be cheaper to swap for a Dash-2 than to try
> to
> change only one gear.
>
>>>>Well, it depends on what you're trying to do. Also, Dash-2 gearboxes
> have now become quite popular due to the recent explosion in the GT40
> replica
> market, so even finding a Dash-2 gearbox might be next to impossible.
>
> >I looked at changing the final drive ratio but was afraid it would
> drastically affect take off unless I put in a massive stroker. Anyone
> changed final
> drive with a normal engine and been happy with it?
>
>>>>You haven't phrased your question properly. The real question is, "Has
> anybody changed the final drive with a normal engine AND the early,
> Mangusta
> gearing?" The answer is probably no.
>
> My spitball analysis is that you would be best off switching to a 3.77
> ring
> and pinion. That, coupled with your ridiculously low internal gearing,
> would
> probably roughly equate to what the later gearboxes had with the taller
> gearing and the 4.22 ring and pinion.
>
> In fact, a few moments spent with the ZF gear calculator Excel spreadsheet
> on
> the www.panteraplace.com site reveals the following:
>
> With the later gearing of the Dash-2 gearbox, with a 4.22 ring and pinion,
> the speed in gears per 1000 rpm works out to:
>
> 8 13 18 22 26
>
> While with your gearing and a 3.77 ring and pinion, the speed in gears per
> 1000 rpm works out to:
>
> 9 14 19 22 25
>
> Pretty damn close! If you can fit a 3.77 ring and pinion into your
> gearbox
> (and I'm fairly certain you can), then for sure that is the way to go.
>
>>The main issue with early 71 cars I have experienced is when you order
>>parts
> for a 71 they may not fit. For example you can't put camber locks on the
> front without a lot of changing things up as early 71 models do not accept
> shims
> and glass/trim pieces are hard to come by. However, at Wilkinsons or
> Quella's
> if you tell them exactly what car you have they are very good about
> knowing
> all these little details.
>
>>>>Exactly true. You have to be VERY specific however, when you have an
> early car like yours, giving them the VIN, plus any other details that
> might be
> relevant. Having detailed familiarity with your own car will be helpful
> before placing an order; they might ask you for a specific measurement
> (such as on
> the front A-arms) for example.
>
> Many early Panteras had their gearboxes switched out from Dash-1 to Dash-2
> under warranty. This was a total scam pulled by the Ford dealers. Ford
> somehow got it into their mind that there was a defect in the early
> gearboxes, when
> in fact the only problem was caused by poor clutch adjustment. Ford
> issued
> a bulletin to the dealers and said they would pay them to replace any
> 'bad'
> gearbox under warranty.
>
> Dealers instantly lit up and saw dollar signs, because this was a big job
> and
> they got paid well for it. So, every Pantera that rolled through the
> dealership for a routine service was diagnosed with a 'bad' gearbox. The
> service
> manager would tell the owner, "Hey, Ford has produced a new, better
> transmission and we will replace your existing one for free. Would you
> like one?" Of
> course every owner said yes.
>
> So, perfectly good Dash-1 gearboxes were pulled out and replaced with
> Dash-2
> units, and Ford wound up getting stuck with the bill each time. Many
> years
> ago, I spoke with a service tech who worked at a big L-M dealership in
> Long
> Beach, I think. He said that they did this as a matter of course,
> sometimes not
> even telling the customer about it beforehand. They would then file a
> claim
> with Ford and get reimbursed for all the labor costs.
>
> He said that there was a stack of 30-40 Dash-1 gearboxes out behind the
> dealership at one point, and then one day they were all just whisked away
> to the
> crusher. :<(
>
> That's why it's not very common to find early cars like yours with
> original,
> low-ratio gearboxes.
>
> Mike (who had to dig WAY deep into his De Tomaso history archives, reading
> individual memos, reports, and purchase orders between Ray Geddes, ZF, the
> Israeli Minister of Finance, Henry Ford, Alejandro De Tomaso, as well as
> various
> Ford engineers involved in the Pantera program, to get all this data
> together...
> .)
>
>
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