[DeTomaso] allowing detroit to fail

Wed Dec 10 20:01:45 EST 2008

This subject has been going on for probably longer than it should.  I
contributed at first but would like to encourage everyone that wants to stay
on this subject to take it off the forum and make your comments person to
person.  

Thanks,

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Ken Green
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:20 AM
To: shelbygt; michael at michaelshortt.com
Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com; Fresnofinches at aol.com; notstock at yahoo.com;
detomaso at realbig.com; cuvee at sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] allowing detroit to fail

No reasonable person wants Detroit to fail, but some of us think (maybe
incorrectly) that UAW member are getting paid twice what other hard working,
family supporting, Americans get paid for the same or harder work, and that
the economy cannot support raising everyone's pay to UAW rates.  That's all
folks, 

I'll be happy to read objective facts showing I'm wrong.

Here are some links from both sides if anyone cares to read them.  I
assume each includes some truth flavored by the writer's agenda.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

http://www.mrswing.com/articles/Middle_Class_UAW_How_About_Upper_Class.html

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/004670.html

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/state-of-the-union/

Ken

--- On Wed, 12/10/08, michael at michaelshortt.com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
wrote:

From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] allowing detroit to fail
To: "shelbygt" <shelbygt at cfu.net>
Cc: kenn_green at yahoo.com, cuvee at sbcglobal.net, detomaso at realbig.com,
Fresnofinches at aol.com, MikeLDrew at aol.com, notstock at yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 9:04 AM

Obviously, a group as large and diverse as ours will never agree on this
issue.

We are share one thing in common, perhaps two things in common, but I won't
go there because I'm sure there are rainbow stickers on a Pantera somewhere!

Let's just stick to OUR cars, and given that the company failed in business
and the founder is now dead, we can point in the mirror at what could happen
to others in car land.

This is getting old and nobody is going to have their minds changed, either
Unions are the best thing since C Cups or they have helped destroy the
industry, either way, you're going to be a sucker to get pulled into support
or hate speech.

I have my opinion as as pointed out, all of us with working fecal exits seem
to have an opinion, apparently, it's an included option. ( although I do
know many people who seem to have the equipment and yet have no opinion,
some in fact seem to be composed primarily of the equipment).

The Big three will not be allowed to fail for any number of reasons,
POLITICAL power and Money being the most important ones. We can agree that
one should try to buy American products when the quality and costs are equal
to an imported option.  I do not think we will ever convince the consumer to
purchase a shoddy product on the premise that it was made in America alone.

Therein is the key, give us a choice of equals and patriotism might skew the
balance in our direction, but until the designers and engineers get their
head out of their asses and quit offering BS like an Aztec ( with a straight
face no less ) and stop making ignorant decisions ( Replace the Dodge Magnum
assemble line with the Challenger line ( Dodge sold 140,000 Magnums in 2007,
they will NEVER sell 40,000 Challengers in any two years)  Stop offering the
same car in 4 different trim models under 3 different names ( Suburban,
Yukon XL, Escalade XL,  Yukon Denali and Silvered, Chevy Truck, GMC Truck,
etc.  Sky and Solstice, Buick models, Pontiac Models, Chevy Models, Ford and
Lincoln models, and how many freaking Jeeps do you really need?

Establish a wage for a job and freeze the wage for that function, if you
want to make more, you study and learn and move up the chain, seniority
alone shouldn't determine pay scales, it is not good economic practice.  Let
Attrition be the guide, as people progress, start the younger ones down
below and have them ( hate this term instant gratification Baby Boomers )
WORK THEIR WAY UP!

Put employers in jail who hire illegal aliens. PERIOD, SHUT DOWN THEIR
COMPANY.

Give jobs to Americans first and like the rest of the world, if you can't
find an American at the function salary, then and only then offer a visa to
an immigrant worker.

Live within your means,

Pay Cash.

Just because you want the 56" Plasma this year doesn't mean you should go
lay down some plastic to get it.

Buy a house that you can afford that is no more than 30% of your take home
pay.

Save 10% of your income.

Establish a rainy day fund that will provide, food, shelter and clothing for
6 months.

Buy a car with cash, amazing how much nicer it drives.

Learn to cook at home.

Buy products from vendors who value your business and are NICE to you.

Assholes should go out of business.

Don't have more kids than you can afford, they cost 800K to raise. Buy some
condoms for Pete's sake.  get fixed.

That's another thing, I have been watching Sally Struthers and the
Children's Fund in Africa for 49 years, stop screwing and you want have any
starving babies.

as Sam Kenison said. "MOVE where the food is!

Why are out of work lazy people always wearing wife beater shirts, unclean
and sitting on the front porch, Get a freaking job or be on the street
looking for one.

Kill robbers on site.

Hang Child Molesters at center court in the mall

Castrate Rapists

Looters should be dropped into the sea 15 miles out

The speed limit should be unlimited for people with the ability to get a
super license and prove their skills, we have one of the best highway
systems in the world which is used for revenue enhancement, not safety.

People who are DUI shouldn't be allowed to drive for a year on the first
offense.

Second offense for 5 years.

Third offense, NEVER drive again.

OK, that should be enough to skew this thread someplace else

Merry Christmas,

Michael in Savannah

:-)

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:26 AM, shelbygt <shelbygt at cfu.net> wrote:

The $150k number sounds like an exception rather than the rule.  Maybe if
they lived at work and never went home.  Union bashers are known to
exaggerate.  I'm not Union, but not so naive as to not recognize that their
sacrifices benefit us all.  The reason Unions came about in the first place
was because of exploitation of employees.

Unions are for the benefit of us all.  PERIOD.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: <cuvee at sbcglobal.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>; <Fresnofinches at aol.com>;
<MikeLDrew at aol.com>; <notstock at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] allowing detroit to fail

>I don't think any of us want Detroit to fail, we believe that they need 
>to enter Chapter 11 and reorganize. I have no problem with the 
>government guaranteeing loans after the reorganization. I also have 
>contacted my 2 senators and congresswoman (all liberal Democrats) and 
>specifically asked if it is true that UAW members are making $150K, and 
>if so, why are we bailing them out. I have not received any answers, 
>which tells me it is true. Another example of how a special interest 
>(the UAW in the instance) owns the Democratic Party.
>
> I bought a Buick Regal GS in 98, and only sold it after 180,000 great 
> miles because little things kept failing. I liked it so much, that I 
> bought another a couple years ago with 30,000 on it (it had been 
> discontinued by Buick) and hope to drive it for a few more years. It 
> is the best car I ever owned, and I think the best styled sedan I've 
> ever owned, even after 10 years. 0-60 in 6.6, and 30+ MPG at 70. It's 
> a great car. But of course, Buick dropped it and I think the 
> replacement sucks.
>
> I have never bought a Japanese car, but appreciate the recognized fact 
> that they forced Detroit to quit making junk.
>
> Ken
>
>
> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, j g <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] allowing detroit to fail
> To: cuvee at sbcglobal.net, detomaso at realbig.com, Fresnofinches at aol.com, 
> kenn_green at yahoo.com, MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 7:20 AM
>
> Nice to hear all the rants about border security, national security 
> etc from all the extreme  right wing , Then immediately  behind that 
> we hear how Detroit
> should be allowed to fail with a lot of emotional reasons about foreign
> (junk)
> being better than American iron. yada yada yada
>
> WEll wake up the industrial might that allow the good old USA to stay 
> secure has come in many forms from Detroit, DEtroit stopped producing 
> cars during ww2
> and geared up for the war  that allowed us to beat the MITSUBISHI
> ,KAWASAKI<
> SUZUKI< BMW< MERCEDES BENZ , PORSCHE produced enemy war machines . Allison
> produced aircraft , ship and tank motors and still does. Chrysler  still
> produces the M1 tank with allison turbine engines.
> Allison produced the first commercial jet engines for American jet
> aircraft,
> they still produce large portions of the ground equipment for aircraft and
> shipboard support.and turbine , diesel and gas support equipment, The
> computers
> used in everything from the titan II launch vehicles to the F-16 were and
> are
> all designed and produced by DELCO (GM)
> The inertial navigation platforms on all 747 aircraft , and required for
> all
> trans oceanic flight are all carousel 4 and 5 systems designed and
> produced by
> GM ,  All the military vehicles are produced by Detroit in some fashion
> from
> engines, chassis parts to full vehicles. Including The chrysler tanks and
> heavy
> vehicles.
>
> So BY screwing detroit in either not bailing them out or by buying and 
> supporting our old enemies companies equipment  you are screwing the 
> national security and strength of our nation . You are being 
> essentially traitors to your own country at the expense of your own 
> greed .
>
> YES this is harsh but think about it.
>
> jg
>
>
>
>
>
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Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
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