[DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto industry Bailout Opinion
RFogle1 at aol.com
RFogle1 at aol.com
Tue Dec 9 10:07:34 EST 2008
The interesting thing about corporate influence is that it does not seem to
apply either to small business, or local elections. I have favored one
mayoral candidate over another in elections where my business is located, but I do
not live, so I have no vote. On several elections now, I have sent company
checks to offer financial support to those candidates I wished to support,
these candidates had also solicited me for support, only to have the checks
returned with a request to contribute in the form of a personal check. Maybe
it's Ohio election law, I've never tried to send a $100 in the form of a
company check to a US Senator. Anyone know what happens? I'm betting your money
just disappears, poof!
Oh yea, I'd be a great guy to help Slacker Larry turn his two cars into
one.... Whenever I work on anything mechanical, I ALWAYS have parts left
over....
Ron in Akron (It's the missing tools that keep you awake at night)
In a message dated 12/8/2008 4:59:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
teampantera at yahoo.com writes:
Well said Ron.....excellent analysis.....
PS Get over to Slacker Larry's house and try and make 1 Pantera out of the 2
he has in his garage ;-]>
MD
RFogle1 at aol.com wrote:
Michael, your right on the money... Unions were great, until we had to
compete with the rest of the world. Companies in other countries don't have
union wages and legacy costs to contend with. Until US companies deal with
that,
they (and we) are screwed!
I think that things started to go downhill for Joe the plumber when the US
Supreme Court decided that campaign contributions were the same as free
speech
and therefore protected by the Constitution. Large corporations were then
able to garner more influence in Washington than the passive, and slow to
catch on, voter. Big companies seem to get what they want. Large companies
have
been ruling the roost for many years. In general, the past 10 years or so
have not been good for small business. As a small business person I have
found it increasingly more challenging to stay profitable. I think were
going to
see some thinning of the heard in large corporations as credit becomes an
increasingly larger issue. I'm now starting to see some of the larger
players
in my industry beginning to lay off people. It sucks to be them right now :
) I am hoping that it creates opportunities. Our business has always grown
during the recessions.
Last new vehicle purchase was an F-350, also two Accords with final assembly
in Marysville, Ohio. It's interesting, there are just a ton of Accords on
the road in Ohio. I think a lot of people don't have any problem supporting
local workers or a local product. It's a shame that profits leave the
country
in the case of the Honda's, but I've owned three new F-350's and they have
all had one issue or another. Paint bubbles on the roof at 37 months on one,
ball joints that last 31,000 miles, failed wiper motor at 26 months. I will
continue to buy the Ford trucks because I've had pretty good success with
them holding value, and I don't see a better option. I think that people are
fed up with products that are of marginal quality. When I was growing up,
the
American cars my parents owned never really lasted more than 100,000 miles.
That may have changed in recent years, but I've owned Honda's that were
solid
and dependable with 215,000 miles, and nothing more than recommended
maintenance. I bet when a foreign company gets serious about light duty
trucks,
Ford will be forced to clean up its act on the petty quality control items.
It's really hard to change people's attitudes.
Ron in Akron (Yes, I live close to Larry)
In a message dated 12/8/2008 2:43:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
michael at michaelshortt.com writes:
140 million on Viagra in 2007, $75 an hour for labor on the line.
No word from Honda, Toyota , BMW or Mercedes plants in US beating,
maligning, abusing or underpaying workers and they haven't asked for any
money either.
Unions served a purpose when child labor was an issue as well as unsafe
working conditions, etc. Nobody denies the role that Unions played in making
employers accountable, but it has been out of hand for decades.
The problem you mention with immigrant labor is another issue entirely,
personally, I say kick the bastards out. US Jobs for US Citizens.
Try to get a job in another country, unless you provide a needed skill set
they don't have, they don't want you there except on vacation to spend your
cash and then get the hell out, we should be that way as well. The borders
are a joke.
But you can't except to remain competitive paying super high wages to people
for jobs that simply can't support it, that's the problem NOW, aside from
the fact that the products are shoddy, ( keep it to yourself, but the number
one selling car is a Toyota ), I drive a Dodge Magnum everyday and it is my
third daily driver that was sort of American made, both of my former
Excursions also had Maple syrup in their veins ).
I still get a kick out of all these leather clad biker dudes on Harley's
chanting "Yeah, Yeah, USA" riding a bike made in Canada while I get dirty
looks on my Honda VTX made in OHIO!
I wanted to buy American, previous to that all my new cars were European
made.
It's a world economy and opening up to the world to free trade screwed us,
two ways to stop it, impose increased tariffs on imported goods ( poop
hitting the fan on that one ) or learn to be competitive and make an equally
decent product that people want.
I used to pass the Ford plant in Atlanta, you could see the employee parking
lot from I-75/I-85
and it was full of cars that were NOT Fords, what the hell were those people
thinking?
Now they don't have a job, wake TFU!
We spent 200 years colonizing the freaking planet and telling these people
how they were savages and how they should live like us, then we set them up
in business ( Occupation of Japan and everyplace else since then ) and now
they kick our asses on a daily basis.
Maybe we coulda just been happy being "Civilized" and kept it to our selves.
But Nooooooooo!
Some A hole thought, Hey I can sell more widgets to these people and they
will never be smart enough to make their own widgets....Doh! Now they make
the widgets and we buy theirs, because our Widget factory is closed down
because the GD janitor made $45.00 an hour and gets 8 weeks of vacation a
year, the same guy who didn't even finish high school.
That's another issue,, work with me on this one, THERE ARE JOBS with a
Finite Value, just because you are too stupid, lazy, dumb, ignorant to learn
another skill doesn't mean that your job should pay more that it is worth!
If you want to flip burgers that's fine with me, but don't expect to make
more in twenty years than you make today ( given inflation growth of course
) just because you've been there twenty years! But that's not how the
unions or many other Americans see it.
We created this monster, Nixon just had to open up China, Now look at you! (
as Tony Montana said to the dead assassin who wanted to blow up the little
children, you stupid F! ) Look out you now!
They watched American movies, they ate American food, they wanted to be
American, so you know what, they got off their lazy 3rd world asses and they
made the effort and now they are beating us at the game we created.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, we got lazy, we stopped caring about quality
and service and just lived with the status quo. Even being arrogant enough
to buy their products instead of ours.....maybe because they were BETTER and
cheaper.
To constantly defend the loopy, crazy, lack of brains path that our
industrial and political leaders have guided us down is to simply a lack any
intelligence whatsoever.
This is the bed that we made and now we are lying in it.
Michael in Savannah
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:09 PM, j g <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
> man are you wrong about unions.
> Unions came about because management historicaly has always exploited
> workers for the managements benefit and could care less how many
undesirable
> workers died or suffered because of their greed . That still goes on today
> under the outsourcing and visa programs for workers from underdeveloped
> countries . Why did Boeing and other aircraft companies end up with
> unionized engineers?? because the workers were being abused mentally
> ,economically and in some cases physically ,this lead to collective
> bargaining and helped produce a fair wage and safe working conditions that
> are just moraly right .
>
> I worked for the big three at one time . The attitude from management was
> all about how much they could extract in blood from the worker , Still is
> that way in most companies based on the English model of accounting ,
> (remember Bob Cratchit from a Christmas carol that has been and still is
the
> exploitive issue rather then the moraly correct way to deal with employees)
> that is why jobs are exported to countries where the worker can become
> exploited for managements bonus gain , now they are faceless. That is also
> why companies Like Sun micro, microsoft, hewlett packard, Texas
instruments,
> all use H1bs and L1A visas and import slave labor (legal by congress and
> taking well paid, educated US jobs i might add, not like the poor less
than
> minumum wage guy from south of the border doing jobs no one wants) FACT
Sun
> and Others were actually found in court to be purposely violating US law
> with regards to age and visas and fined as a result .
>
> jg
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 12/8/08, michael at michaelshortt.com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry
> Bailout OPINION
> > To: kenn_green at yahoo.com
> > Cc: "Pantera Forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay Laughton" <
> asajay at asajay.com>, notstock at yahoo.com
> > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 11:19 AM
> > Even the movie business has been hit hard, so many
> > productions in Canada,
> > Romania, etc.
> > and unless your state is willing to pay these MF's with
> > incentives, you can
> > forget them coming to your town.
> > So many of the stars could stop it, Tom Selleck shoots all
> > those cowboy
> > films in Canada, all he would have to do is say NO, but he
> > doesn't.
> > The entire movie, Cold Mountain with Jude Law and N. Kidman
> > was shot in
> > Romania, supposed to be the South during the civil war.
> > They could have
> > said no, but they didn't.
> >
> > The fact is that Movies get 6-75% of their revenue outside
> > the USA now, it
> > is a world market and the minute that these idiots opened
> > up Red China and
> > then compounded it with NAFTA, we were screwed.
> >
> > You can't buy an American Made TV, haven't been
> > able to do that is 25 years.
> >
> > Sooner or later it will be cars and most other appliances,
> > shipping costs
> > are the hold up, nothing more, let then develop nuke
> > container ships and we
> > are so F^%$ked it won't be funny!
> >
> > High Point, NC is the world Furniture Capital in name only,
> > most of it is
> > now made overseas, only upholstered goods are still made
> > here and only
> > because shipping is too expensive ).
> >
> > The unions have killed the car industry and for them to
> > make "Concessions is
> > a freaking joke, they are simply NO LONGER NEEDED, theses
> > companies need to
> > bust the unions and Bankruptcy can do that, but the unions
> > give big to the
> > politicos and that ain't gonna happen.
> > so these loans are just toilet paper money going down the
> > drain.
> >
> > After these idiots pump trillions into the economy by
> > printing more money
> > with nothing to back it up, look for runaway inflation in
> > the next few
> > years, remember Carter ( loser, worst president ever ) ,
> > when a car loan was
> > 15%-22% if you had GOOD CREDIT.
> >
> > It's coming.
> >
> > This is a service economy, if you make something ( aside
> > from big jets and
> > military equipment), you are screwed! If you provide a
> > service, you might
> > have a chance.
> >
> > Save this email, I told you so.
> >
> > BTW, this is always followed by a war to thin the herd and
> > cause a demand
> > for more stuff to fix the stuff that got blown TFU. Of
> > course, we'll fit
> > the bill for that too, and then even little Paki kids will
> > have better
> > water, schools, books and communications than those who
> > live in New Mexico
> > and West Virginia.
> >
> > Michael in Savannah
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Ken Green
> > <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > By "gut reaction" I was only referring to
> > closing the borders to foreign
> > > products. Most of my engineering career was in
> > aerospace, and the secutity
> > > clearances pretty much blocked foreign employment, at
> > least where I worked,
> > > although the jobs that only required a confidential
> > clearance were probably
> > > open to non-citizens.
> > >
> > > I agree with you that there is a big problem, and I
> > mostly blame it on the
> > > bean counters running companies here, The gal (Carly
> > Fiorina) recently
> > > booted from HP had a degree in philosophy?? Figure
> > that one out. The board
> > > said she did a great job, the stock only lost half
> > it's value and laid off a
> > > bunch of employees under her leadership. I can't
> > see that as success, I
> > > still can't understand why McCain thought she was
> > so great???
> > >
> > > I think most of the people running the biggest
> > companies don't even think
> > > of themselves as American any more. They view the
> > companies they run as
> > > global, and if they can move a job outside the US, and
> > increase their mega
> > > buck bonus as a result, it's off to China.
> > >
> > > If anything saves our country, I think it will be
> > small to medium size
> > > businesses where the owners (or at least those with
> > still a controlling
> > > share of the stock) care about building something and
> > creating jobs.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
> > CONTENT, US Auto Industry
> > > Bailout OPINION
> > > To: "Pantera Forum"
> > <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay Laughton"
> > <
> > > asajay at asajay.com>, kenn_green at yahoo.com
> > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 8:05 AM
> > >
> > > This is more than Gut reaction , I have particularly
> > been present to
> > > discussions by government representatives that have
> > said ,to general
> > > managers
> > > and personel managers how to hire hib or l1a jobs
> > and how to skirt the
> > > law
> > > requiring a U.S. posting and review. The worst i have
> > ever heard said "is
> > > by hireing l1a or h1b visas you can at any time
> > terminate the sponcership
> > > so the
> > > worker can be controlled to work the hours and
> > conditions that benefit the
> > > company and if they complain the company just pulls
> > the sponcership to
> > > eliminate a problematic worker." I have seen a
> > document by the defense
> > > logistics arm Of the Gao that particularly tells
> > defence contractors to
> > > hire
> > > irish and english engineers over US born because they
> > are easy to get
> > > clearences
> > > and since they do not know the real economic situation
> > in the US are
> > > willing to
> > > relocate at half the US pay rate , speak english and
> > become at the graces
> > > of the
> > > company so do not complain about the harsh
> > > working conditions or wages that a US born free agent
> > would for fear of
> > > deportation , This allows defence contractors to
> > reduce their labor rate on
> > > government bids.
> > >
> > > Jg
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Ken Green
> > <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
> > CONTENT, US Auto Industry
> > > Bailout OPINION
> > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
> > <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay
> > > Laughton" <asajay at asajay.com>,
> > notstock at yahoo.com
> > > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 9:23 AM
> > > > I think most of us have the same gut reaction
> > that you do,
> > > > but the big problem I see was shown by the cars
> > that US
> > > > auto makers made before the Japanese raised the
> > bar. I
> > > > don't know how you protect American jobs and
> > industry
> > > > without corporations (run by the bean counters)
> > settling
> > > > into mediocrity. But it does seem that the
> > global economy
> > > > has not benefited the American worker much.
> > > >
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, j g
> > <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
> > CONTENT, US
> > > > Auto Industry Bailout OPINION
> > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
> > <detomaso at realbig.com>,
> > > > "Asa Jay Laughton"
> > <asajay at asajay.com>
> > > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 6:06 AM
> > > >
> > > > how about we cancel all h1b and L1a visas, all
> > green cards
> > > > , then force
> > > > "made in the usa" content legislation
> > for all
> > > > industries just like
> > > > europe, china, india, japan and all of asia do as
> > well .
> > > > i know that here in dallas 30 plus percent of
> > texas
> > > > instruments engineering
> > > > jobs are l1a or h1b visas yet we have enough us
> > born
> > > > engineers to fill the same
> > > > positions that are qualified out of work.
> > > > to say restructure is jargon for "build
> > overseas
> > > > " and put americans
> > > > out of work.
> > > >
> > > > How about full employement for americans first .
> > > >
> > > > that will put jobs back here in the usa and kepp
> > our
> > > > economy moving,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Asa Jay Laughton
> > > > <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Asa Jay Laughton
> > <asajay at asajay.com>
> > > > > Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
> > CONTENT,
> > > > US Auto Industry
> > > > Bailout OPINION
> > > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
> > > > <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > > > > Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:21 PM
> > > > > This is POLITICAL, but NON- PARTISAN. (no
> > stumping
> > > > > candidates, not
> > > > > speeches, no jokes)
> > > > > If this gets me banned... oh well, I've
> > said my
> > > > peace.
> > > > > This is -MY- opinion. If you AGREE, I would
> > strongly
> > > > > encourage you to
> > > > > WRITE your congressman (or woman)
> > > > > This is about the AUTO BAILOUT being
> > considered in the
> > > > U.S.
> > > > > Congress
> > > > > If you are NOT INTERESTED, DELETE NOW
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > ***************************************************************
> > > > > The REAL way to Bailout the Auto industry:
> > > > >
> > > > > Two sections:
> > > > > - Why Congress should NOT give any money to
> > the
> > > > automakers
> > > > > directly
> > > > > - How the money -should- be put to use and
> > why
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Why Congress SHOULD NOT give any money
> > directly to the
> > > > > automakers:
> > > > > - This will only put money in -their-
> > pockets
> > > > > - It will NOT reduce inventories
> > > > > - It will NOT make room for more
> > manufacturing
> > > > > - It will NOT benefit anyone down-line
> > > > (dealerships,
> > > > > parts makers, etc.)
> > > > > - It will NOT prevent layoffs
> > > > > - It WILL ALLOW the Big Three to payoff
> > the unions
> > > > even
> > > > > if it can't
> > > > > give out work.
> > > > > - It WILL ALLOW high level corporate
> > employees,
> > > > > CEO's, etc. to
> > > > > BAILOUT of the company with high dollar
> > pensions,
> > > > bonuses
> > > > > and severance
> > > > > packages. (It happend with the banking
> > bailout, what
> > > > makes
> > > > > you think it
> > > > > won't with the auto makers?)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - How the money -should- be put to use and
> > why:
> > > > > - GIVE THE MONEY TO THE TAXPAYERS
> > > > > - A sight-draft type of check
> > > > > - Can ONLY be cashed in at a Big
> > Three auto
> > > > dealer
> > > > > - May NOT be used to buy a foreign
> > car (made
> > > > by
> > > > > anyone other
> > > > > than a big three company)
> > > > > - May NOT be cashed at a bank
> > > > > - Transferable (in case the taxpayer
> > does not
> > > > or
> > > > > can not drive)
> > > > > - Auto makers and dealers may NOT
> > manipulate
> > > > MSRP
> > > > > - Who get's them?
> > > > > - Impractical for every taxpayer
> > > > > - 140 million taxpayers as of
> > 2007 (IRS
> > > > data)
> > > > > - $25 billion divided by 140
> > million is
> > > > $178
> > > > > per person.
> > > > > - Eligible group must be narrowed:
> > > > > - $25 billion divided by a
> > $20,000
> > > > sight-draft
> > > > > per person is
> > > > > 1,250,000 recipients
> > > > > - The number of recipients goes
=== message truncated
===</detomaso at realbig.com></asajay at asajay.com></asajay at asajay.com></asajay at asajay.com></detomaso at realbig.com></notstock at yahoo.com></n
otstock at yahoo.com></asajay at asajay.com></detomaso at realbig.com></kenn_green at yaho
o.com></kenn_green at yahoo.com></detomaso at realbig.com></notstock at yahoo.com></not
stock at yahoo.com></kenn_green at yahoo.com></detomaso at realbig.com></michael at michae
lshortt.com></michael at michaelshortt.com></notstock at yahoo.com>
Mad Dawg Antenucci
Team Pantera Racing
The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
_www.teampanteraracing.com_ (http://www.teampanteraracing.com/)
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