[DeTomaso] Fw: NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry Bailout OPINION
Will Demelo
wdemelo at cogeco.ca
Mon Dec 8 16:50:41 EST 2008
Well said.
Will
----- Original Message -----
From: <michael at michaelshortt.com>
To: <notstock at yahoo.com>
Cc: <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; "Asa Jay Laughton" <asajay at asajay.com>; "Pantera
Forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT,US Auto Industry
Bailout OPINION
> 140 million on Viagra in 2007, $75 an hour for labor on the line.
>
> No word from Honda, Toyota , BMW or Mercedes plants in US beating,
> maligning, abusing or underpaying workers and they haven't asked for any
> money either.
>
> Unions served a purpose when child labor was an issue as well as unsafe
> working conditions, etc. Nobody denies the role that Unions played in
> making
> employers accountable, but it has been out of hand for decades.
>
> The problem you mention with immigrant labor is another issue entirely,
> personally, I say kick the bastards out. US Jobs for US Citizens.
> Try to get a job in another country, unless you provide a needed skill set
> they don't have, they don't want you there except on vacation to spend
> your
> cash and then get the hell out, we should be that way as well. The
> borders
> are a joke.
> But you can't except to remain competitive paying super high wages to
> people
> for jobs that simply can't support it, that's the problem NOW, aside from
> the fact that the products are shoddy, ( keep it to yourself, but the
> number
> one selling car is a Toyota ), I drive a Dodge Magnum everyday and it is
> my
> third daily driver that was sort of American made, both of my former
> Excursions also had Maple syrup in their veins ).
> I still get a kick out of all these leather clad biker dudes on Harley's
> chanting "Yeah, Yeah, USA" riding a bike made in Canada while I get dirty
> looks on my Honda VTX made in OHIO!
> I wanted to buy American, previous to that all my new cars were European
> made.
>
> It's a world economy and opening up to the world to free trade screwed us,
> two ways to stop it, impose increased tariffs on imported goods ( poop
> hitting the fan on that one ) or learn to be competitive and make an
> equally
> decent product that people want.
>
> I used to pass the Ford plant in Atlanta, you could see the employee
> parking
> lot from I-75/I-85
> and it was full of cars that were NOT Fords, what the hell were those
> people
> thinking?
> Now they don't have a job, wake TFU!
>
> We spent 200 years colonizing the freaking planet and telling these people
> how they were savages and how they should live like us, then we set them
> up
> in business ( Occupation of Japan and everyplace else since then ) and now
> they kick our asses on a daily basis.
> Maybe we coulda just been happy being "Civilized" and kept it to our
> selves.
> But Nooooooooo!
> Some A hole thought, Hey I can sell more widgets to these people and they
> will never be smart enough to make their own widgets....Doh! Now they
> make
> the widgets and we buy theirs, because our Widget factory is closed down
> because the GD janitor made $45.00 an hour and gets 8 weeks of vacation a
> year, the same guy who didn't even finish high school.
>
> That's another issue,, work with me on this one, THERE ARE JOBS with a
> Finite Value, just because you are too stupid, lazy, dumb, ignorant to
> learn
> another skill doesn't mean that your job should pay more that it is worth!
> If you want to flip burgers that's fine with me, but don't expect to make
> more in twenty years than you make today ( given inflation growth of
> course
> ) just because you've been there twenty years! But that's not how the
> unions or many other Americans see it.
>
> We created this monster, Nixon just had to open up China, Now look at you!
> (
> as Tony Montana said to the dead assassin who wanted to blow up the little
> children, you stupid F! ) Look out you now!
>
> They watched American movies, they ate American food, they wanted to be
> American, so you know what, they got off their lazy 3rd world asses and
> they
> made the effort and now they are beating us at the game we created.
> Meanwhile back at the ranch, we got lazy, we stopped caring about quality
> and service and just lived with the status quo. Even being arrogant
> enough
> to buy their products instead of ours.....maybe because they were BETTER
> and
> cheaper.
>
> To constantly defend the loopy, crazy, lack of brains path that our
> industrial and political leaders have guided us down is to simply a lack
> any
> intelligence whatsoever.
>
> This is the bed that we made and now we are lying in it.
>
> Michael in Savannah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:09 PM, j g <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> man are you wrong about unions.
>> Unions came about because management historicaly has always exploited
>> workers for the managements benefit and could care less how many
>> undesirable
>> workers died or suffered because of their greed . That still goes on
>> today
>> under the outsourcing and visa programs for workers from underdeveloped
>> countries . Why did Boeing and other aircraft companies end up with
>> unionized engineers?? because the workers were being abused mentally
>> ,economically and in some cases physically ,this lead to collective
>> bargaining and helped produce a fair wage and safe working conditions
>> that
>> are just moraly right .
>>
>> I worked for the big three at one time . The attitude from management
>> was
>> all about how much they could extract in blood from the worker , Still is
>> that way in most companies based on the English model of accounting ,
>> (remember Bob Cratchit from a Christmas carol that has been and still is
>> the
>> exploitive issue rather then the moraly correct way to deal with
>> employees)
>> that is why jobs are exported to countries where the worker can become
>> exploited for managements bonus gain , now they are faceless. That is
>> also
>> why companies Like Sun micro, microsoft, hewlett packard, Texas
>> instruments,
>> all use H1bs and L1A visas and import slave labor (legal by congress and
>> taking well paid, educated US jobs i might add, not like the poor less
>> than
>> minumum wage guy from south of the border doing jobs no one wants) FACT
>> Sun
>> and Others were actually found in court to be purposely violating US law
>> with regards to age and visas and fined as a result .
>>
>> jg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 12/8/08, michael at michaelshortt.com
>> <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto
>> > Industry
>> Bailout OPINION
>> > To: kenn_green at yahoo.com
>> > Cc: "Pantera Forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay Laughton" <
>> asajay at asajay.com>, notstock at yahoo.com
>> > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 11:19 AM
>> > Even the movie business has been hit hard, so many
>> > productions in Canada,
>> > Romania, etc.
>> > and unless your state is willing to pay these MF's with
>> > incentives, you can
>> > forget them coming to your town.
>> > So many of the stars could stop it, Tom Selleck shoots all
>> > those cowboy
>> > films in Canada, all he would have to do is say NO, but he
>> > doesn't.
>> > The entire movie, Cold Mountain with Jude Law and N. Kidman
>> > was shot in
>> > Romania, supposed to be the South during the civil war.
>> > They could have
>> > said no, but they didn't.
>> >
>> > The fact is that Movies get 6-75% of their revenue outside
>> > the USA now, it
>> > is a world market and the minute that these idiots opened
>> > up Red China and
>> > then compounded it with NAFTA, we were screwed.
>> >
>> > You can't buy an American Made TV, haven't been
>> > able to do that is 25 years.
>> >
>> > Sooner or later it will be cars and most other appliances,
>> > shipping costs
>> > are the hold up, nothing more, let then develop nuke
>> > container ships and we
>> > are so F^%$ked it won't be funny!
>> >
>> > High Point, NC is the world Furniture Capital in name only,
>> > most of it is
>> > now made overseas, only upholstered goods are still made
>> > here and only
>> > because shipping is too expensive ).
>> >
>> > The unions have killed the car industry and for them to
>> > make "Concessions is
>> > a freaking joke, they are simply NO LONGER NEEDED, theses
>> > companies need to
>> > bust the unions and Bankruptcy can do that, but the unions
>> > give big to the
>> > politicos and that ain't gonna happen.
>> > so these loans are just toilet paper money going down the
>> > drain.
>> >
>> > After these idiots pump trillions into the economy by
>> > printing more money
>> > with nothing to back it up, look for runaway inflation in
>> > the next few
>> > years, remember Carter ( loser, worst president ever ) ,
>> > when a car loan was
>> > 15%-22% if you had GOOD CREDIT.
>> >
>> > It's coming.
>> >
>> > This is a service economy, if you make something ( aside
>> > from big jets and
>> > military equipment), you are screwed! If you provide a
>> > service, you might
>> > have a chance.
>> >
>> > Save this email, I told you so.
>> >
>> > BTW, this is always followed by a war to thin the herd and
>> > cause a demand
>> > for more stuff to fix the stuff that got blown TFU. Of
>> > course, we'll fit
>> > the bill for that too, and then even little Paki kids will
>> > have better
>> > water, schools, books and communications than those who
>> > live in New Mexico
>> > and West Virginia.
>> >
>> > Michael in Savannah
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Ken Green
>> > <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > By "gut reaction" I was only referring to
>> > closing the borders to foreign
>> > > products. Most of my engineering career was in
>> > aerospace, and the secutity
>> > > clearances pretty much blocked foreign employment, at
>> > least where I worked,
>> > > although the jobs that only required a confidential
>> > clearance were probably
>> > > open to non-citizens.
>> > >
>> > > I agree with you that there is a big problem, and I
>> > mostly blame it on the
>> > > bean counters running companies here, The gal (Carly
>> > Fiorina) recently
>> > > booted from HP had a degree in philosophy?? Figure
>> > that one out. The board
>> > > said she did a great job, the stock only lost half
>> > it's value and laid off a
>> > > bunch of employees under her leadership. I can't
>> > see that as success, I
>> > > still can't understand why McCain thought she was
>> > so great???
>> > >
>> > > I think most of the people running the biggest
>> > companies don't even think
>> > > of themselves as American any more. They view the
>> > companies they run as
>> > > global, and if they can move a job outside the US, and
>> > increase their mega
>> > > buck bonus as a result, it's off to China.
>> > >
>> > > If anything saves our country, I think it will be
>> > small to medium size
>> > > businesses where the owners (or at least those with
>> > still a controlling
>> > > share of the stock) care about building something and
>> > creating jobs.
>> > >
>> > > Ken
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > From: j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
>> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
>> > CONTENT, US Auto Industry
>> > > Bailout OPINION
>> > > To: "Pantera Forum"
>> > <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay Laughton"
>> > <
>> > > asajay at asajay.com>, kenn_green at yahoo.com
>> > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 8:05 AM
>> > >
>> > > This is more than Gut reaction , I have particularly
>> > been present to
>> > > discussions by government representatives that have
>> > said ,to general
>> > > managers
>> > > and personel managers how to hire hib or l1a jobs
>> > and how to skirt the
>> > > law
>> > > requiring a U.S. posting and review. The worst i have
>> > ever heard said "is
>> > > by hireing l1a or h1b visas you can at any time
>> > terminate the sponcership
>> > > so the
>> > > worker can be controlled to work the hours and
>> > conditions that benefit the
>> > > company and if they complain the company just pulls
>> > the sponcership to
>> > > eliminate a problematic worker." I have seen a
>> > document by the defense
>> > > logistics arm Of the Gao that particularly tells
>> > defence contractors to
>> > > hire
>> > > irish and english engineers over US born because they
>> > are easy to get
>> > > clearences
>> > > and since they do not know the real economic situation
>> > in the US are
>> > > willing to
>> > > relocate at half the US pay rate , speak english and
>> > become at the graces
>> > > of the
>> > > company so do not complain about the harsh
>> > > working conditions or wages that a US born free agent
>> > would for fear of
>> > > deportation , This allows defence contractors to
>> > reduce their labor rate on
>> > > government bids.
>> > >
>> > > Jg
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Ken Green
>> > <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
>> > CONTENT, US Auto Industry
>> > > Bailout OPINION
>> > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
>> > <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Asa Jay
>> > > Laughton" <asajay at asajay.com>,
>> > notstock at yahoo.com
>> > > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 9:23 AM
>> > > > I think most of us have the same gut reaction
>> > that you do,
>> > > > but the big problem I see was shown by the cars
>> > that US
>> > > > auto makers made before the Japanese raised the
>> > bar. I
>> > > > don't know how you protect American jobs and
>> > industry
>> > > > without corporations (run by the bean counters)
>> > settling
>> > > > into mediocrity. But it does seem that the
>> > global economy
>> > > > has not benefited the American worker much.
>> > > >
>> > > > Ken
>> > > >
>> > > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, j g
>> > <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > From: j g <notstock at yahoo.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
>> > CONTENT, US
>> > > > Auto Industry Bailout OPINION
>> > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
>> > <detomaso at realbig.com>,
>> > > > "Asa Jay Laughton"
>> > <asajay at asajay.com>
>> > > > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 6:06 AM
>> > > >
>> > > > how about we cancel all h1b and L1a visas, all
>> > green cards
>> > > > , then force
>> > > > "made in the usa" content legislation
>> > for all
>> > > > industries just like
>> > > > europe, china, india, japan and all of asia do as
>> > well .
>> > > > i know that here in dallas 30 plus percent of
>> > texas
>> > > > instruments engineering
>> > > > jobs are l1a or h1b visas yet we have enough us
>> > born
>> > > > engineers to fill the same
>> > > > positions that are qualified out of work.
>> > > > to say restructure is jargon for "build
>> > overseas
>> > > > " and put americans
>> > > > out of work.
>> > > >
>> > > > How about full employement for americans first .
>> > > >
>> > > > that will put jobs back here in the usa and kepp
>> > our
>> > > > economy moving,
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --- On Fri, 12/5/08, Asa Jay Laughton
>> > > > <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > From: Asa Jay Laughton
>> > <asajay at asajay.com>
>> > > > > Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA
>> > CONTENT,
>> > > > US Auto Industry
>> > > > Bailout OPINION
>> > > > > To: "Pantera Forum"
>> > > > <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> > > > > Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:21 PM
>> > > > > This is POLITICAL, but NON- PARTISAN. (no
>> > stumping
>> > > > > candidates, not
>> > > > > speeches, no jokes)
>> > > > > If this gets me banned... oh well, I've
>> > said my
>> > > > peace.
>> > > > > This is -MY- opinion. If you AGREE, I would
>> > strongly
>> > > > > encourage you to
>> > > > > WRITE your congressman (or woman)
>> > > > > This is about the AUTO BAILOUT being
>> > considered in the
>> > > > U.S.
>> > > > > Congress
>> > > > > If you are NOT INTERESTED, DELETE NOW
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > ***************************************************************
>> > > > > The REAL way to Bailout the Auto industry:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Two sections:
>> > > > > - Why Congress should NOT give any money to
>> > the
>> > > > automakers
>> > > > > directly
>> > > > > - How the money -should- be put to use and
>> > why
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Why Congress SHOULD NOT give any money
>> > directly to the
>> > > > > automakers:
>> > > > > - This will only put money in -their-
>> > pockets
>> > > > > - It will NOT reduce inventories
>> > > > > - It will NOT make room for more
>> > manufacturing
>> > > > > - It will NOT benefit anyone down-line
>> > > > (dealerships,
>> > > > > parts makers, etc.)
>> > > > > - It will NOT prevent layoffs
>> > > > > - It WILL ALLOW the Big Three to payoff
>> > the unions
>> > > > even
>> > > > > if it can't
>> > > > > give out work.
>> > > > > - It WILL ALLOW high level corporate
>> > employees,
>> > > > > CEO's, etc. to
>> > > > > BAILOUT of the company with high dollar
>> > pensions,
>> > > > bonuses
>> > > > > and severance
>> > > > > packages. (It happend with the banking
>> > bailout, what
>> > > > makes
>> > > > > you think it
>> > > > > won't with the auto makers?)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > - How the money -should- be put to use and
>> > why:
>> > > > > - GIVE THE MONEY TO THE TAXPAYERS
>> > > > > - A sight-draft type of check
>> > > > > - Can ONLY be cashed in at a Big
>> > Three auto
>> > > > dealer
>> > > > > - May NOT be used to buy a foreign
>> > car (made
>> > > > by
>> > > > > anyone other
>> > > > > than a big three company)
>> > > > > - May NOT be cashed at a bank
>> > > > > - Transferable (in case the taxpayer
>> > does not
>> > > > or
>> > > > > can not drive)
>> > > > > - Auto makers and dealers may NOT
>> > manipulate
>> > > > MSRP
>> > > > > - Who get's them?
>> > > > > - Impractical for every taxpayer
>> > > > > - 140 million taxpayers as of
>> > 2007 (IRS
>> > > > data)
>> > > > > - $25 billion divided by 140
>> > million is
>> > > > $178
>> > > > > per person.
>> > > > > - Eligible group must be narrowed:
>> > > > > - $25 billion divided by a
>> > $20,000
>> > > > sight-draft
>> > > > > per person is
>> > > > > 1,250,000 recipients
>> > > > > - The number of recipients goes
>> > up if
>> > > > Congress
>> > > > > approves more.
>> > > > > - Possible eligibility by income
>> > level?
>> > > > > - To what income bracket
>> > will
>> > > > 1,250,000
>> > > > > checks be used up?
>> > > > > - Possible first come, first
>> > served
>> > > > > - Apply with U.S. Government
>> > > > > - Web site or phone line
>> > > > > - similar to the TV
>> > Converter
>> > > > coupons
>> > > > > - Must be an eligible
>> > Taxpayer
>> > > > > - Must be registered to vote
>> > > > > - voters are the people
>> > who should
>> > > > have
>> > > > > a say in this
>> > > > > - Must have valid drivers
>> > license
>> > > > > - Only ONE per eligible
>> > person or
>> > > > family
>> > > > > (household)
>> > > > > - U.S. Government verifies
>> > eligibility
>> > > > and
>> > > > > issues
>> > > > > sight-draft
>> > > > > - The dealer completes the sight-draft
>> > check with
>> > > > a
>> > > > > valid VIN and
>> > > > > presents it for payment.
>> > > > > - The dealer pays the Big Three auto
>> > maker
>> > > > > - And thus, they get their bailout
>> > money
>> > > > > - Benefits the Tax payer
>> > > > > - They can get a new car increasing
>> > personal
>> > > > > equity, mobility, etc.
>> > > > > - Benefits the environment
>> > > > > - New cars are more efficient
>> > > > > - Many buyers will most likely get
>> > rid of
>> > > > their
>> > > > > older car
>> > > > > - Benefits the dealership
>> > > > > - They sell the cars, stimulating
>> > local
>> > > > economies
>> > > > > - Benefits the Big Three auto makers
>> > > > > - They get rid of inventories
>> > > > > - It makes room for more
>> > manufacturing
>> > > > > - Benefits the auto parts industry
>> > > > > - The Big Three will need more parts
>> > to build
>> > > > more
>> > > > > cars
>> > > > > - People will need spares or
>> > replacements for
>> > > > parts
>> > > > > that break
>> > > > > - Benefits local governments
>> > > > > - Sales taxes, license fees, etc.
>> > > > > - Keeps more people employed
>> > > > > - See the benefits listed above
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Think about it for a minute, it makes more
>> > sense.
>> > > > Giving
>> > > > > the auto
>> > > > > makers the money doesn't stimulate local
>> > > > economies. It
>> > > > > just lets them
>> > > > > continue with the status quo; supplying
>> > overpriced
>> > > > benefits
>> > > > > and inflated
>> > > > > wages to union employees, building more cars
>> > in an
>> > > > already
>> > > > > super-saturated market. In addition, not
>> > many people
>> > > > are
>> > > > > buying new cars
>> > > > > right now, so if you give the auto makers
>> > the money,
>> > > > it may
>> > > > > just put
>> > > > > more unsold inventory into the pipeline
>> > which in turn
>> > > > > increases the
>> > > > > entire problem they have in the first place.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Who says giving the auto makers the money
>> > will change
>> > > > their
>> > > > > strategy?
>> > > > > If I had been a CEO of a major auto maker, I
>> > would
>> > > > have
>> > > > > been re-thinking
>> > > > > business strategy years ago, not living with
>> > razor
>> > > > thin
>> > > > > profits, or even
>> > > > > losses. You don't run a successful
>> > business that
>> > > > way.
>> > > > > I wasn't too
>> > > > > surprised when they showed up in Congress
>> > the first
>> > > > time
>> > > > > with no plan,
>> > > > > and frankly if they had a plan they
>> > wouldn't need
>> > > > the
>> > > > > money in the first
>> > > > > place. So if Congress wants to bail them
>> > out by
>> > > > giving
>> > > > > them money,
>> > > > > fine, but let them get it as they deserve,
>> > from the
>> > > > > taxpayers and not
>> > > > > directly from Congress. Give the bailout
>> > money to the
>> > > > > taxpayer and let
>> > > > > the taxpayer make the choice of who they
>> > bailout by
>> > > > > exercising their tax
>> > > > > money as a vote when they buy a car.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It's an all around better idea.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Write your congressman (or woman)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
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>> > Michael L. Shortt
>> > Savannah, Georgia
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>> > michael at michaelshortt.com
>> > 912-232-9390
>> >
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> --
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
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