[DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry Bailout OPINION

Mon Dec 8 19:19:04 EST 2008

I agree with much of what JG is saying.....here in California on public works construction project (City, County, State funded construction) every general contractor and subcontractor is required by law to pay whats called "Prevailing Wages" which IS union scale....so union employees are NOT making any more then their so called non-union brothers. 

j g <notstock at yahoo.com> wrote: 
guys 

do any of you now work for the big 3 do any of you know someone working for the big 3 ? The whole rants about 100k salaries is just plain horse hockey. 

Well I have worked for them and have neighbors that work for them here in the dallas area at asssembly plants .

The union wage for a non skilled position is not any different here in Dallas  than that for a non union worker at AER a larger rebuilder in the area. The main difference is that the Uaw worker has slightly better health care , and has a union pension as part of the collective bargining agreement. The worker at AER has no medical insurance at all except what they buy themselves and has no pension or even a 401k possibility . One of my neighbors has to take their kids to the local county emergency room due to no health care at all . 
 The foreign automakers relocating to the USA have been given huge incentives by local governments such that no corporate or local property tax is expected for 25 years or more (honda - 98 years at Marysville) no state income tax--- BMW, Honda, Toyota , and since they have no older workers They have no pension and retirement insurance requirements like the big 3 have that are based on past collective agreements made by the company to the workers in exchange for lower wages and increased output.and to make up for moraly wrong intimidation like ford did all through the 30's thru the 50's ( Ford hired mobsters to beat up workers and union organizers as well as workers that spoke up against injustice) 
Next Both the korean and japanese governments subsidize all the companies selling any where in the world to make the sell price of the product either lower than or as a minimum equal to the nearest competator in the particular market.  Toshiba ,Samsung , Toyota all have been fined heavily
in either the USA or europe  for this predatory  pricing . Next it used to be law that all pensions had to have full funding , well during the regan years ALL companies in the usa were allowed to use the pension funds as liquid assests and not have full funding, JUST LIKE SOCIAL SECURITY. 
The management of all large US companies went and raided the pension funds rather than borrow against assets this allowed the greedy to get larger bonuses because it did not come against the opperating line on the balance sheet. 

SO when one says the foreign  companies  donot ask for anything? Balony you are already subsidizing them every time you pay your state or federal income tax . Honda, toyota, BMW all laughing to the bank at the stupid Americans . 

jg 

--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Ken Green  wrote:

> From: Ken Green 
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry Bailout OPINION
> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" , notstock at yahoo.com, "Mad Dog Antenucci" 
> Cc: "Asa Jay Laughton" , "Pantera Forum" 
> Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 4:26 PM
> Dennis,
>  
>     I don't think the suppliers make even close to
> UAW wages.  I would argue that if UAW members made only
> $100K, more US cars would be sold because prices would drop,
> and there would be more jobs at the suppliers.  The high
> UAW wages probably hurt employment everwhere else. 
>  
>     If Chapter 11 is the only way for that to happen,
> then so be it.  I doubt the average car buyer sees much
> difference between needing billions of our tax dollars and
> Chapter 11.
>  
> Ken
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Mad Dog Antenucci
>  wrote:
> 
> From: Mad Dog Antenucci 
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US
> Auto Industry Bailout OPINION
> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com"
> , notstock at yahoo.com
> Cc: kenn_green at yahoo.com, "Asa Jay Laughton"
> , "Pantera Forum"
> 
> Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 1:56 PM
> 
> I agree they should have...And you KNOW they will all be
> back for more.
> 
> I was one of those who initially said the Big 3
> shouldn't get sheeeit and 
> NO government bailout.......
> 
> But reading and listening to a few our people on this List
> over the last week
> who are OUT OF WORK  has convinced me penalizing every
> supplier and small
> business and EMPLOYEE who had nothing to do with the
> unions, managing the Big 3
> or government would further make a bad situation
> worse....7.6% unemployment
> times the total number of folks not eligible for benefits
> or who are not counted
> some say really accounts for a number like 12-13%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "michael at michaelshortt.com"
>  wrote:
> This just off the wire, I love the first half of the last
> sentence.
> 
> *"GM, which is now committed to making car consumers
> want to buy "*
> 
> 
> Duh!  Shouldn't that have been the plan all along??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General Motors (GM : 4.83, +0.75, +18.38%)
> needs $18 billion from the government and taxpayers and
> wants the American
> people to know why.
> 
> In an open letter titled "GM's Commitment to the
> American People"
> which ran
> in Automotive News, a trade journal ready by industry
> executives, lobbyists
> and other insiders, the beleaguered car maker candidly
> acknowledged it has
> disappointed U.S. consumers and pledged to do better. It
> said recent strides
> to improve the company have been hurt by the economic
> downturn, which is why
> it needs the loans.
> 
> "We are in the midst of the worst economic crisis
> since the Great
> Depression," said GM in the missive. "Just like
> you, we have been
> severely
> impacted by events outside our control. Despite moving
> quickly to reduce our
> planned spending by over $20 billion, GM finds itself
> precariously and
> frighteningly close to running out of cash."
> 
> Still GM acknowledged that while the economy is hurting the
> car company, it
> has made missteps it only has itself to blame.
> 
> "At times we violated your trust by letting our
> quality fall below
> industry
> standards and our designs become lackluster," wrote
> GM. "We have
> proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point
> where we lost
> adequate focus on our core U.S. market." What's
> more GM said it
> wrongly
> focused on pick-ups and SUVs over other brands and as a
> result "paid
> dearly."
> 
> Indeed last week GM reported that sales fell 41% in the
> month of November.
> 
> GM, which is now committed to making car consumers want to
> buy, said its
> restructuring actions should enable the company to start
> repaying taxpayers
> in 2011.
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