[DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry Bailout OPINION

Rich hoppe1 at cox.net
Sat Dec 6 13:32:17 EST 2008


Dennis
There may be a diference in the midwest.
Union jobs take a lot longer and are costlier to perform.
I was personally working for my Dad's company doing underground plumbing.
The BA came over to me and said I was working too hard and fast.  I needed 
to slow down because I was doing two days work in one.  I swear this is the 
truth.
I was also running a backhoe for electric lines.  The electricians were 
installing the conduits.  A lump of dirt about 3 shovels full fell into the 
trench that the backhoe could not reach.  The electrians could not move the 
dirt.  They tell their supervisor, he gets the laborer supervisor and about 
1/2 hour latter a laborer gets there to move the dirt.  In the meantime 
everyone stood around and waited.
That was the UNION rules.
They had and do have a purpose but need to be revamped.  In some industries 
they run y\business into the ground, if they want to.
Rich
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mad Dog Antenucci" <teampantera at yahoo.com>
To: "Peter Kovacs" <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>; "Asa Jay Laughton" 
<asajay at asajay.com>; "Pantera Forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT,US Auto Industry 
Bailout OPINION


> Let me get the flame thrower out....This bailout of the Big 3 has nothing 
> to do with generating jobs, saving jobs or improving the economy by buying 
> a car for mismanagement.
>
> There is plenty of blame to go around both in management and the unions. 
> But it is a shame to see hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country 
> that never had anything to do with NOT buying a car or mismanaging these 
> companies or a union lose their jobs and lose their homes.  We can afford 
> to bail out Freddy and Fanny and Citigroup and the Big 3 but not help 
> taxpayers who have lost jobs and are now losing homes?  No Peter I am not 
> talking about the welfare cheat who bought a subprime loan....Or the 
> ILLEGAL mortgage lenders, home appraisers and bankers on wall wtreet.
>
>
> Most of you slackers have never worked for a living.  No I don't count 
> sitting at a desk drawing pictures or playing on your computer or selling 
> homes work unless it involves working 12 or 24 hour shifts or working 
> offshore for 30 days straight or busting knuckles in 100F+ sun, driving 
> rain or snow on a oil rig or a construction job.
>
> I'm not ashamed to say I have been in management for 25 years and damn 
> proud of being in the trades before that. Every trade union member who has 
> ever come on to a job I ran knew if he didn't perform he would be OFF the 
> job before the day was out....and every BA (union business agent) knew it 
> too. I can't speak to manufacturing but I can remember my brother who 
> worked as a machinist for Boeing for 30 years working mandatory 12 hours a 
> day 7 days a week.  He didn't complain, he worked, got laid off and went 
> back to work again for Boeing, paid his union dues and worked his ass off.
>
> Peter Kovacs <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net> wrote: Good thoughts. figure out 
> how to avoid unwanted side affects in two areas.
>
> If you don't limit the ability of the person who just obtained the new 
> vehicle to immediately sell the car, the first come entrepreneurial 
> eligible person could purchase the new car(s) with the voucher, resell it 
> for cash and further soften new auto sales by adding almost new cars back 
> to the market at reduced cost.
>
> You would also need to insure that a person benefitting from the new 
> vehicle would not subsequently let their existing vehicle be repossesed 
> further stressing the banks and credit markets. Possibly limit eligibility 
> to people who have not recently let a gov back home loan go into 
> foreclosure or short sale,default on a student loan, filed BK, etc and 
> impose a consequence if they do within 24 months.
>
> Current policy is to throw money at a problem. That keeps the problem 
> coming. Throw money at the solution, things may change.
>
> I agree with your concept. Reward the responsible people and encourage the 
> others to be responsible. Stop rewarding the irresponsible and encouraging 
> others to be irresponsible.
>
> Thanks for letting me vent. I am still at work sifting through the carnage 
> created by irresponsible people and choices as it relates to Central 
> Valley Real Estate and loans....so I really apprecaite your way of 
> thinking.
>
>
>
>
> Peter Kovacs
> Property Equity & Mortgage Mgmt
> 209 345-6708
> 209 523-4919 fx
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Asa Jay Laughton
> To: Pantera Forum
> Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 8:21:49 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: REALLY NO PANTERA CONTENT, US Auto Industry 
> Bailout OPINION
>
> This is POLITICAL, but NON- PARTISAN. (no stumping candidates, not
> speeches, no jokes)
> If this gets me banned... oh well, I've said my peace.
> This is -MY- opinion.  If you AGREE, I would strongly encourage you to
> WRITE your congressman (or woman)
> This is about the AUTO BAILOUT being considered in the U.S. Congress
> If you are NOT INTERESTED, DELETE NOW
>
> ***************************************************************
> The REAL way to Bailout the Auto industry:
>
> Two sections:
> - Why Congress should NOT give any money to the automakers directly
> - How the money -should- be put to use and why
>
>
> Why Congress SHOULD NOT give any money directly to the automakers:
>    - This will only put money in -their- pockets
>    - It will NOT reduce inventories
>        - It will NOT make room for more manufacturing
>    - It will NOT benefit anyone down-line (dealerships, parts makers, 
> etc.)
>    - It will NOT prevent layoffs
>    - It WILL ALLOW the Big Three to payoff the unions even if it can't
> give out work.
>    - It WILL ALLOW high level corporate employees, CEO's, etc. to
> BAILOUT of the company with high dollar pensions, bonuses and severance
> packages.  (It happend with the banking bailout, what makes you think it
> won't with the auto makers?)
>
>
> - How the money -should- be put to use and why:
>    - GIVE THE MONEY TO THE TAXPAYERS
>    - A sight-draft type of check
>        - Can ONLY be cashed in at a Big Three auto dealer
>        - May NOT be used to buy a foreign car (made by anyone other
> than a big three company)
>        - May NOT be cashed at a bank
>        - Transferable (in case the taxpayer does not or can not drive)
>        - Auto makers and dealers may NOT manipulate MSRP
>    - Who get's them?
>        - Impractical for every taxpayer
>            - 140 million taxpayers as of 2007 (IRS data)
>            - $25 billion divided by 140 million is $178 per person.
>        - Eligible group must be narrowed:
>            - $25 billion divided by a $20,000 sight-draft per person is
> 1,250,000 recipients
>            - The number of recipients goes up if Congress approves more.
>            - Possible eligibility by income level?
>                - To what income bracket will 1,250,000 checks be used up?
>            - Possible first come, first served
>                - Apply with U.S. Government
>                    - Web site or phone line
>                    - similar to the TV Converter coupons
>                - Must be an eligible Taxpayer
>                - Must be registered to vote
>                    - voters are the people who should have a say in this
>                - Must have valid drivers license
>                - Only ONE per eligible person or family (household)
>                - U.S. Government verifies eligibility and issues
> sight-draft
>    - The dealer completes the sight-draft check with a valid VIN and
> presents it for payment.
>    - The dealer pays the Big Three auto maker
>        - And thus, they get their bailout money
>    - Benefits the Tax payer
>        - They can get a new car increasing personal equity, mobility, etc.
>    - Benefits the environment
>        - New cars are more efficient
>        - Many buyers will most likely get rid of their older car
>    - Benefits the dealership
>        - They sell the cars, stimulating local economies
>    - Benefits the Big Three auto makers
>        - They get rid of inventories
>        - It makes room for more manufacturing
>    - Benefits the auto parts industry
>        - The Big Three will need more parts to build more cars
>        - People will need spares or replacements for parts that break
>    - Benefits local governments
>        - Sales taxes, license fees, etc.
>    - Keeps more people employed
>        - See the benefits listed above
>
> Think about it for a minute, it makes more sense.  Giving the auto
> makers the money doesn't stimulate local economies.  It just lets them
> continue with the status quo; supplying overpriced benefits and inflated
> wages to union employees, building more cars in an already
> super-saturated market. In addition, not many people are buying new cars
> right now, so if you give the auto makers the money, it may just put
> more unsold inventory into the pipeline which in turn increases the
> entire problem they have in the first place.
>
> Who says giving the auto makers the money will change their strategy?
> If I had been a CEO of a major auto maker, I would have been re-thinking
> business strategy years ago, not living with razor thin profits, or even
> losses.  You don't run a successful business that way.  I wasn't too
> surprised when they showed up in Congress the first time with no plan,
> and frankly if they had a plan they wouldn't need the money in the first
> place.  So if Congress wants to bail them out by giving them money,
> fine, but let them get it as they deserve, from the taxpayers and not
> directly from Congress.  Give the bailout money to the taxpayer and let
> the taxpayer make the choice of who they bailout by exercising their tax
> money as a vote when they buy a car.
>
> It's an all around better idea.
>
> Write your congressman (or woman)
>
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> Mad Dawg Antenucci
> Team Pantera Racing
>  The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
> www.teampanteraracing.com
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