[DeTomaso] Wheel bearing issues
Mad Dog Antenucci
teampantera at yahoo.com
Thu Oct 4 11:54:05 EDT 2007
Dick & Fred,
Great stuff.....although I could use some more information on the dawg bone air filters and batteries if anyone else has that information ;-]>
Dawg
F&D Terry <gt5s at bcpl.net> wrote:
Hi Dick,
I don't think the list members are saturated with our conversation. I
think there is an interest for accurate technical information which
there is too little of on the list.
I do think the rear bearings have been talked through but I'll add that
I think taper bearings are now past technology. Modern cars are now
being equipped with cartridge type bearings for both front and rear
applications. These are usually packaged as double row sealed duplexed
bearings that have their preload/end play set when they are tightened in
place. I ran across an excellent cartridge type bearing that can be used
in the Pantera upright with minimal machining.
It is interesting that Corvette also specifies that the front taper
bearings be set with a 0 preload to .007" end movement when properly
adjusted. Most mechanics do use the tighten/loosten method but perhaps
this may come from from a certain laziness. I use the Corvette manual
for reference because it is handy. Other manuals are also specific in
front bearing adjustment. Corvette's outlined procedure calls for
tightening the spindle nut to 15ft. lbs., then backing off one flat on
the nut. This will yield the 0" to .007" end play. Other manuals suggest
that bearings be tightened so the wheel can be turned with a specific
value of torque.
I don't know what value that information has but there are probably some
on this list who may find it of interest. Let's keep posting some good
accurate technical information to the list. I think people enjoy it.
Fred T.
Dick Koch wrote:
>Fred, I have no reason to doubt your statement that the amount of work
>and time it takes to properly set the bearings on a Corvette is an
>arduous process.
>
>In my original post, the side item I mentioned was relating the merits
>of the techniques Timken discussed in their reference material. I
>wasn't speaking specifically about the Pantera but in general on how
>Timken recommended tapered roller bearings be installed.
>
>As far as my Pantera, for the front wheel bearings I use the simplistic
>and inexact method most mechanics I have seen use - tighten the bearing
>until the wheel is hard to turn and back off half a turn or until it
>rotates freely. There is no end play in this simplistic and inexact
>method to set the bearing.
>
>I checked the front wheel bearings this past winter when I had the car
>down and found them in great shape. This isn't a great testimonial
>since I only had 8,000 miles on the car since I rebuilt the front and
>rear suspension. Since it is easy to inspect and service the front
>bearings, I don't go through any exacting process to insure the bearings
>are installed perfectly.
>
>It is a different story for the rear axle assembly. Given the
>difficulty and time consuming task of inspecting and servicing the
>tapered roller bearings in my modified rear axle assembly, I went to
>great lengths to insure that I used the method that insured the most
>durable and lasting installation. Following Timken's advice, I used
>their measured preloaded technique of applying 0.001 to 0.003 of an inch
>preload.
>
>By the way, in the design I used for the tapered roller bearing
>conversion, a press is not required to install the bearings.
>
>With the new rear axle design, I do an external check on the rear axle
>assemblies each month. I check for wobble and noise, inspect the
>inboard seal for leakage as well as any indication that the outboard
>seal is leaking. So far so good.
>
>Well enough of that. I'm sure this thread is now becoming as boring to
>folks as many of the others on this forum tend to be after a subject is
>beat to death.
>
>By the way, what projects are you working on now? It would be
>interesting to see some more pictures of and dialog on some of your
>latest creations.
>
>Dick Koch - Atlanta
>
>
>F&D Terry wrote:
>
>
>>Your post was easily understood. I think the procedure for setting
>>proper end play on Corvette axles is about as involved as doing preload
>>on a Pantera. Both require a press, dial indicator and a handful of
>>shims, or in the case of a spacing sleeve a lathe sure helps in trimming
>>the sleeve to a proper length. Having done both, they each require about
>>the same time and care to insure a proper outcome.
>>
>>Fred T.
>>
>>Dick Koch wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Fred, what a garble de goop message. Sorry about that.
>>>
>>>It should have read as follows:
>>>
>>>Fred, you are right when you talk about acceptable. Both preload and
>>>end play techniques work.
>>>
>>>Timken told me it is a matter of skill and mostly the time available
>>>that should guide folks in determining which technique to use.
>>>
>>>In my prior discussions with the Timken techs when I was designing my
>>>axle conversion, they said they don't push the preload technique for
>>>general use for the reason I gave. The end play technique provides
>>>"acceptable " results. The preload technique is preferred but not for
>>>general use.
>>>
>>>Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>
>>>Dick Koch wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>F&D Terry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dick,
>>>>>
>>>>>There seems to be two acceptable schools of thought concerning
>>>>>preload. The Corvette shop manuals for '63 forward specify a .001" to
>>>>>.007" free play to be within acceptable limits for the taper bearing
>>>>>rear uprights.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From a '63 shop manual, "The tapered roller spindle bearings should
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>end play of .001"-.007". Check end play and, when necessary, adjust
>>>>>as follows." I have owned many of these cars and have never had
>>>>>problems.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fred T.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dick Koch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>This interesting (to some) topic comes up every now and then. For
>>>>>>those with an interest in going through the "whats, hows, and whys"
>>>>>>of bearings, visit the Timken automotive tech site at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All the issues discussed on this thread (bearings, seals, lubricant,
>>>>>>etc.) are covered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For a primer on bearings, Tech Tips "Volume 1" gives a quick
>>>>>>overview of bearing topics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For additional information, click on the "here" link at the bottom
>>>>>>of the page for additional automotive tech tips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As a side item, it is interesting to note that the technique of
>>>>>>"preloading" a tapered roller bearing, as referenced by Timken, is
>>>>>>preferable to the "end play" adjustment technique (see "Issue 3,
>>>>>>Tech Tips Volume 6).
>>>>>>"..... (a) slight preload can be beneficial to the success of long
>>>>>>wheel end life. Slight preload can improve bearing, seal and tire
>>>>>>life, but only if the entire process is in control. "In control"
>>>>>>means that you actually know the bearing setting process will result
>>>>>>in a consistent bearing setting range."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>However, that topic on preloading specifically speaks to the
>>>>>>pitfalls of incorrectly preloading a bearing.
>>>>>>"The benefits of a light and controlled preload bearing setting are
>>>>>>negated if bearing preload force is excessive. Excessive preload can
>>>>>>cause high
>>>>>>operating temperatures, reduced lubricant life, reduced seal life,
>>>>>>and premature bearing damage. Bearing lock-up and/or wheel end
>>>>>>separation may occur if the preload force is excessive."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Since it takes a skilled tech, spending the time necessary to set a
>>>>>>correct preload, Timken recommends in the automotive tech section to
>>>>>>use the "end play" bearing adjustment procedure used by the majority
>>>>>>of mechanics. As per Timken, "This method requires the least skill
>>>>>>and has proven to be the overall best technique for general field
>>>>>>installation and maintenance."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>>>>
>>>>>>MikeLDrew at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In a message dated 10/2/07 20 42 44, pantera at pobox.com writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What seems to have gone wrong with mikes car is a lack of lube. I
>>>>>>>>dont see
>>>>>>>>ANY!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yeah, me neither. Trust me, it was there at one point, not too
>>>>>>>long ago. What you couldn't see in the close-up photos was that
>>>>>>>there was grease residue all over the surface of the hub. The
>>>>>>>grease seemed to transform to oil as the heat built up, and then
>>>>>>>all leaked out, apparently?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I got both spindles off today (passenger side seems fine), and will
>>>>>>>shortly dismantle them both. I aim to see if the passenger side
>>>>>>>is adequately lubricated or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Lessons have been learned, no doubt!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>**************************************
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>>>>>
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Mad Dawg Antenucci
Team Pantera Racing
The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
www.teampanteraracing.com
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