[DeTomaso] Fw: Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
Donny Williams
donnylee at ccwebster.net
Sun Mar 11 12:45:09 EDT 2007
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at excaliburre.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
> Dan,
>
> You were out a bit on some of the lash settings, but I would agree nothing
> more then just needing and adjustment. And I would have expected some
> decent lifter rattle as the way it was set up. It troubles me a tiny bit
> that the wrong throw rocker was on the one valve. Your engine should run
> a bit better with this corrected. But my small fear possibilty here is,
> if you have a monster roller cam (Not sure) 630 lift Plus.... you may not
> have had proper clearance for that throw of a rocker (Valve to piston) on
> the exhaust side. Only your builder would know that. I never got caught
> up in this mix match on rockers myself. My opinion, not that you want it,
> is to simply buy the right cam to begin with and run a matched set of
> rockers. But the Valve to Piston could be the reason your builder employed
> the 1.5-1.6 ratio offset. Don't let that freak you out just keep that in
> mind. Others try to get more performance using this method on a cam they
> should not have bought in the first place. (My opinion) And try to
> correct it with the offset.
>
> I recall I had fairly close Piston to Valve with a flat top Piston at
> 626/647 Lift. In other words for me to go bigger I would have had to cut
> the valve reliefs. It does not sound like you have sunk any valves. But
> to check height you using anything you want to reference to all 15 others.
> Your not trying to determine actual spring height, just checking to make
> sure what you have is all the same, so no fancy tool is needed here. Make
> your self a reference and check the others the same way against a self
> made template.
>
> As john pointed out, it will be critical to pull the Rollers and check and
> make sure they spin free and roll smooth. How many hours/Miles you got
> on your rollers? Solids really are worth replacing about every 4K Miles
> to avoid anything going wrong with your lifters. Becuase "IF" one lets go
> it will for sure take your engine with it.
>
> My vote on the what to do is pending right now on what you find in your
> filter and inspecting your rollers lifters, ultamately I would reccommend
> replacing them because you have it down this far at this point. Mine is
> due for a new set, I have roughy 4500 miles on mine.... Its insurance!
> And its cheap maintenance compared to a new engine, or maintaining another
> exotic type! SO be happy to spend the money.
>
> My last question to you is how well was this engine runnning with the
> noise? Was it missing and running rough? Or you just had some noise and
> it still ran great? I am still not exactly sure what kind of noise you
> might have been hearing. Bottom noise is pretty easy to discern against
> top end noise.
>
> As for sumps I am not experienced with them....So I cannot speak to what
> they sound like when they start to go south. As for the sheen in your oil
> I still expect its highly likely is from the dizzy gear. As for the small
> peice of aluminum on the top it could be break in garbage, or something
> more sinister.... When you open that filter, trust me you will know!
>
>
> Keep us posted Mister!
>
> Donny
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at excaliburre.com>
> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 9:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>
>
>> Donny,
>>
>> I pulled the distributor, intake, rockers, stud girdle and pushrods.
>> The distributor gear looks fine (to me).
>> No metal or other crap under the intake. The valley has screens in each
>> corner and they hadn't caught anything other than a couple of very tiny
>> flakes of aluminum.
>> I forgot to slice the oil filter, but all the oil showed nothing more
>> than a gold sheen under strong light. I'll saw it tomorrow (roller
>> rockers are Crane gold, showing a little wear from the pushrods).
>>
>> The valve clearances (cold) were:
>>
>> Intake:
>> 1 .022
>> 2 .023
>> 3 .021
>> 4 .018
>> 5 .020
>> 6 .023
>> 7 .018
>> 8 .018
>>
>> Exhaust:
>> 1 .024
>> 2 .020
>> 3 .025
>> 4 .022
>> 5 .020
>> 6 .018
>> 7 .022
>> 8 .021
>>
>> I noticed it's set up with 1.5 roller rockers on the exhaust valves and
>> 1.6 on the intake valves (except for #1, which got reversed). Same
>> pushrods throughout.
>> All the pushrods are straight.
>> I didn't notice anything obvious that could have caused such a loud
>> noise.
>> I did not pull the roller lifters or check the valve spring height (not
>> sure how to do either). Visually they look fine (to me).
>>
>> Giving the lack of metal chunks I'm wondering if my dry sump oil pump
>> could have been making this noise, although the pressure was holding up.
>>
>> Dan
>> Dan F. Courtney
>>
>>
>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>> La Jolla, CA
>>
>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>> To: "dan courtney" <dfcex at excaliburre.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>
>>
>>> Dan-
>>>
>>> Yes, as a drag racer I call this engine maintenance. I pull my stuff
>>> down 1 once a year for bearings. If the the compression is good at the
>>> end of the season I do not re-ring. As for your Cam it should be set
>>> somewhere in the neighborhood of .020 hot And somewhere around 0.24
>>> cold. I would carefully inspect your topend. If you can here it just
>>> turning it over its wounded somewhere.
>>>
>>> Start looking at the top end.
>>>
>>> First look at your valve lash as it exists and measure your clearances
>>> and record them. This could lead you to a direct source if one of your
>>> valves has big clearance
>>> Remove your intake
>>> Remove you valve covers
>>> Pull your dizzy.Inspect the gear
>>> Remove and inspect you Roller rockers and studs. Make sure they are
>>> free in the pivots, and tips
>>> Remove your pushrods Inspect them for true by rolling them on a flat
>>> surface
>>> Remove your roller lifters. Make sure the spin free and are not
>>> pounded.
>>> Inspect your spring heights all valves
>>>
>>> If you do not find something here, obvious and your initial set
>>> clearances were not huge. Only then would I make the decision to pull
>>> the block and look further, or correct what you find wrong in the top
>>> end inspection and re-assemble the top. It possible that if you were not
>>> doing some lash checks that you had a lock nut on a rocker simply loosen
>>> up on you. That being the case you will find it with this inspection.
>>> If your oil presure is as always, at least that is one good sign to hang
>>> on!
>>>
>>> Keep us posted, I will keep my fingers crossed it is something simple
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "dan courtney" <dfcex at excaliburre.com>
>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:11 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Donny,
>>>> I'll save some oil from the filter and slice it tomorrow. It was either
>>>> a very loud tapping or a faint knocking.
>>>> It was very auduble during cranking with the ignition off.
>>>> The sheen does appear gold.
>>>> I want to check the valve adjustment but I don't knoe the clearance for
>>>> such a high lift cam.
>>>> Isn't it advisable to change bearings and rings after each race season?
>>>> Dan
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Sent: 3/9/07 3:24 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>
>>>> Because I have not used them I am not sure if they do metelurgy or not
>>>> you
>>>> would have to ask them. If its Dizzy gear it will have a golden sheen
>>>> to
>>>> it. If it silver sheen not so good..... If you cut that filter apart
>>>> you
>>>> will be suprised what you see in there and should be able to identify
>>>> the
>>>> metal type yourself by the color.
>>>>
>>>> The fact you have dropped no oil pressure is a very good signal at
>>>> least.
>>>> Did you check to make you do not maybe have a bent pushrod? That
>>>> sounds
>>>> pretty plausible in this. Is it a knock or a loud tap your hearing?
>>>> I
>>>> would try to isolate that area if you can, and still stand on where I
>>>> would
>>>> begin to check and try, before I decided to yank it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 2:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Donny,
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, no drop at all in oil pressure. Couldn't tell where the
>>>>> knock/clap
>>>>> was coming from.
>>>>> If I send the oil in for analysis, can they tell the difference
>>>>> between
>>>>> the dis gear and bearings?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 2:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan I am betting it is your bronze gear your seeing in the oil, and
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> nothing more then a rocker adjustment if your not knocking somewhere
>>>>>> low!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My plan would be pull the dizzy look at your gear for wear, change
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> oil filters, I might inspect the bottom of your lifters if they are
>>>>>> roller then adjust up your rockers and give it a whirl.... You did
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> drop oil pressure right? I am now betting your problem is nothing
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> then some top end maintenance. And I am sure you hope the same.
>>>>>> You
>>>>>> might just be ok here Mister............
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>>>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:05 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Donny,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may just do that. There is a bronze gear and the rockers are very
>>>>>>> loose, so it MAY be just the solid lifter cam in need of adjustment,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> I'd hate to guess wrong (again).
>>>>>>> I just finished dropping a rebuilt SBC into my 67 Chevy trailer
>>>>>>> hauler
>>>>>>> last night so the cherry picker is still assembled and in the
>>>>>>> garage...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Mad Dog Antenucci" <teampantera at yahoo.com>; "Dan Courtney"
>>>>>>> <dfcex at pacbell.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:02 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My thought is if you have metallic sheen thats all you need to
>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>> Cut your filter and look for metal imbedded in the element. If you
>>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>> noise I am betting bearings. Are you running a bronze dizzy gear?
>>>>>>>> That could be a source of sheen, but so is copper bearing.....
>>>>>>>> Change
>>>>>>>> the oil hope for the best, or pull it out which would be a
>>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>>> you would have to take to inspect it properly anyway. What does
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> noise sound like? Personally, I would save your money on the oil
>>>>>>>> analysis, heck, you already know you got metal...He would just say
>>>>>>>> yep
>>>>>>>> there is metal in your oil........At that point its not that
>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>> what type, you will have to pull it out anyway to fix it. And
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be easy to find the source with the inspection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Mad Dog Antenucci" <teampantera at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:25 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for race report.....sorry to hear about your engine.....you
>>>>>>>>> drain the oil and pull filters yet? Do a leak down test? As Bob
>>>>>>>>> Benson likes to say if you aren't breaking anything you aren't
>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>> hard enough.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> md
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dan Courtney <dfcex at pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if anyone remembers the contact info for the
>>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>>> that performs an analysis of engine oil.
>>>>>>>>> "The Beast" got a hard work-out at Willow Springs last week and
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> making some noise by Sunday afternoon.
>>>>>>>>> Nothing obvious when I pulled the valve covers but the oil has a
>>>>>>>>> metallic sheen.
>>>>>>>>> Speaking of Willow Springs, we had a decent showing of Panteras
>>>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>>>> sadly, no Panteras ran in the exhibition race, for the first time
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> can recall.
>>>>>>>>> I arrived late and had no chance to warm up, Greg Esakoff snaped
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> input shaft of his ZF Friday, Chris Qualls (sp) had an axle snap
>>>>>>>>> Saturday morning and went 4 wheeling and the other Panteras
>>>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>>>> (Jim Saxtons Group IV, now owned by Jeff), Dr. Abe, and a
>>>>>>>>> beautiful
>>>>>>>>> red former Woodhouse Pantera all ran different groups.
>>>>>>>>> The red group was very fast with alot of blazing fast Porches,
>>>>>>>>> Ferraris and Vipers leading the pack. "The Beast" was holding it's
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> by Sunday afternoon but some of those cars were just too darn
>>>>>>>>> fast.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>>>>>>>>> Team Pantera Racing
>>>>>>>>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>>>>>>>>> www.teampanteraracing.com
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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