[DeTomaso] Fw: Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller CamAdjustment(WasEngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
Charles Engles
cengles at cox.net
Sat Mar 10 20:11:54 EST 2007
Dear Professors Dan, Ken and Larry,
ooops. I must have been sleeping in class again. Yes.
Roller LIFTERS, ah, yes. Well, now I understand how to test them.
Thanks guys.
Less befuddled, Chuck Engles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry - Ohio Time Corp." <larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
To: "Charles Engles" <cengles at cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fw: Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller
CamAdjustment(WasEngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
> Hi Chuck,
>
> He was talking about roller lifters not rockers. But the same holds true
> that pounding on any bearing can rune it. A rolling bearing should be
> tested for excess play when not loaded and smoothness of rolling under
> pressure. A wheel bearing that has no play can sing up a storm because one
> or more of the rollers surfaces is flaking or pitting. You will get this
> by over heating them or running the out of adjustment.
>
> To test your rockers look for more play in one then the other. To test it
> under a load (a small one) you would push down on it with your thumb as
> you roll it. It should feel smooth as glass. If you feel clunking or
> resistance in spots it is on the way out. Next time you are in the parts
> store ask to look at a new one to see how they feel before you give them
> back. Most if not all roller rockers can be rebuilt.
>
> Larry - Cleveland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Engles" <cengles at cox.net>
> To: "John Taphorn" <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
> Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fw: Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller
> CamAdjustment(WasEngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
>
>
>> Dear John,
>>
>>
>> For those of us who know what a roller rocker arm is, but
>> who have never seen a needle bearing-----how does one "check the needle
>> bearing" of a roller rocker arm?
>>
>>
>> Normally befuddled, Chuck Engles
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Taphorn" <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fw: Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller Cam
>> Adjustment(WasEngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
>>
>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> If it is a roller cam, I recommend that you pull the lifters and inspect
>>> the needle bearings in the rollers. Increased valve lash is the first
>>> symptom of needle bearing compromise or wear. Failure to address this
>>> condition in its early stages will destroy the cam, lifters and
>>> distribute
>>> metal shavings throughout the engine.
>>>
>>> Those little needle bearings in the lifter's roller will not survive the
>>> pounding of excessive lash that occurs when the rocker arm smacks the
>>> tip
>>> of the valve. At this point the cam lobe's acceleration ramp has
>>> steepened and when the valve train comes together at zero lash that
>>> needle
>>> bearing is the weak link and can't stand the pressure.
>>>
>>> Actually, it is probably a case of chicken or the egg. Did sloppy lash
>>> cause the bearings to pound out or did powdered bearings cause the lash.
>>> Either way, I suspect that is one of your present issues.
>>>
>>> Check the needle bearings in the rollers
>>>
>>> JT
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 1:08 PM
>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Fw: Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller Cam Adjustment
>>> (WasEngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Donny, it is a roller cam.
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>> Sent: 3/10/07 8:59 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller Cam Adjustment
>>>>> (Was
>>>>> EngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan- You probably have zero-ed in on your ill.... They should not be
>>>>> loose
>>>>> as heck! They should have .020-.024 clearance max open. We talking
>>>>> a
>>>>> roller or flat tappet here? Curious.
>>>>>
>>>>> All solid lifter cams are set with a feeler gauge. You will have to
>>>>> roll
>>>>> the engine to get the valve on the base circle Fully Open on the cam.
>>>>> If
>>>>> you fail to do this your lash setting adjustment will end up being
>>>>> looser
>>>>> then an X rated film. Always go back and verify your
>>>>> settings/adjustment
>>>>> a
>>>>> second time is my sound advise unless you are a pro at it!
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 1:08 AM
>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Solid Lifter HIGH Lift Roller Cam Adjustment (Was
>>>>> EngineOil Analysis / Willow Springs Update)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going to yank the distributor in the AM but before I pull the
>>>>>> rockers
>>>>>> and check the pushrods I want to see how far out of adjustment this
>>>>>> cam
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> (4 or 5 on each side loose as heck as they sit).
>>>>>> Does anyone know how much clearance there should be, or are all solid
>>>>>> lifter
>>>>>> cams adjusted by the same method?
>>>>>> Could well have been pushrods I heard. At first I thought my electric
>>>>>> fuel
>>>>>> pump was working overtime, remembered I had a full 10 gallon cell,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> it got louder, all during one lap.
>>>>>> I'm also sending out a specimen and dissecting the oil filter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 3:24 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because I have not used them I am not sure if they do metelurgy or
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> would have to ask them. If its Dizzy gear it will have a golden
>>>>>>> sheen
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> it. If it silver sheen not so good..... If you cut that filter
>>>>>>> apart
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> will be suprised what you see in there and should be able to
>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> metal type yourself by the color.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact you have dropped no oil pressure is a very good signal at
>>>>>>> least.
>>>>>>> Did you check to make you do not maybe have a bent pushrod? That
>>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>>> pretty plausible in this. Is it a knock or a loud tap your
>>>>>>> hearing?
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> would try to isolate that area if you can, and still stand on where
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> would begin to check and try, before I decided to yank it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 2:14 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Donny,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, no drop at all in oil pressure. Couldn't tell where the
>>>>>>>> knock/clap
>>>>>>>> was coming from.
>>>>>>>> If I send the oil in for analysis, can they tell the difference
>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>> the dis gear and bearings?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 2:08 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs Update
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dan I am betting it is your bronze gear your seeing in the oil,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> nothing more then a rocker adjustment if your not knocking
>>>>>>>>> somewhere
>>>>>>>>> low!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My plan would be pull the dizzy look at your gear for wear, change
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> oil filters, I might inspect the bottom of your lifters if they
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> roller then adjust up your rockers and give it a whirl.... You did
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> drop oil pressure right? I am now betting your problem is
>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> then some top end maintenance. And I am sure you hope the same.
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> might just be ok here Mister............
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>; "Mad Dog Antenucci"
>>>>>>>>> <teampantera at yahoo.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:05 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs
>>>>>>>>> Update
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Donny,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I may just do that. There is a bronze gear and the rockers are
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>> loose, so it MAY be just the solid lifter cam in need of
>>>>>>>>>> adjustment,
>>>>>>>>>> but I'd hate to guess wrong (again).
>>>>>>>>>> I just finished dropping a rebuilt SBC into my 67 Chevy trailer
>>>>>>>>>> hauler
>>>>>>>>>> last night so the cherry picker is still assembled and in the
>>>>>>>>>> garage...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Donny Williams" <donnylee at ccwebster.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Mad Dog Antenucci" <teampantera at yahoo.com>; "Dan Courtney"
>>>>>>>>>> <dfcex at pacbell.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:02 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs
>>>>>>>>>> Update
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My thought is if you have metallic sheen thats all you need to
>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>> Cut your filter and look for metal imbedded in the element. If
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> got noise I am betting bearings. Are you running a bronze dizzy
>>>>>>>>>>> gear?
>>>>>>>>>>> That could be a source of sheen, but so is copper bearing.....
>>>>>>>>>>> Change
>>>>>>>>>>> the oil hope for the best, or pull it out which would be a
>>>>>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>>>>>> you would have to take to inspect it properly anyway. What does
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> noise sound like? Personally, I would save your money on the oil
>>>>>>>>>>> analysis, heck, you already know you got metal...He would just
>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>> yep
>>>>>>>>>>> there is metal in your oil........At that point its not that
>>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>>> what type, you will have to pull it out anyway to fix it. And
>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> be easy to find the source with the inspection.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Mad Dog Antenucci" <teampantera at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Dan Courtney" <dfcex at pacbell.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 10:25 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Engine Oil Analysis / Willow Springs
>>>>>>>>>>> Update
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for race report.....sorry to hear about your
>>>>>>>>>>>> engine.....you
>>>>>>>>>>>> drain the oil and pull filters yet? Do a leak down test? As
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>> Benson likes to say if you aren't breaking anything you aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>>>>> hard enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> md
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan Courtney <dfcex at pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if anyone remembers the contact info for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>>>>>> that performs an analysis of engine oil.
>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Beast" got a hard work-out at Willow Springs last week and
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> making some noise by Sunday afternoon.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing obvious when I pulled the valve covers but the oil has
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> metallic sheen.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking of Willow Springs, we had a decent showing of Panteras
>>>>>>>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>>>>>>> sadly, no Panteras ran in the exhibition race, for the first
>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> can recall.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I arrived late and had no chance to warm up, Greg Esakoff
>>>>>>>>>>>> snaped
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> input shaft of his ZF Friday, Chris Qualls (sp) had an axle
>>>>>>>>>>>> snap
>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday morning and went 4 wheeling and the other Panteras
>>>>>>>>>>>> present
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Jim Saxtons Group IV, now owned by Jeff), Dr. Abe, and a
>>>>>>>>>>>> beautiful
>>>>>>>>>>>> red former Woodhouse Pantera all ran different groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The red group was very fast with alot of blazing fast Porches,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ferraris and Vipers leading the pack. "The Beast" was holding
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>> own by Sunday afternoon but some of those cars were just too
>>>>>>>>>>>> darn
>>>>>>>>>>>> fast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan F. Courtney
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Excalibur Commercial Real Estate Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phone (858) 551-5455
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fax (858) 551-5456
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mad Dawg Antenucci
>>>>>>>>>>>> Team Pantera Racing
>>>>>>>>>>>> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.teampanteraracing.com
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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