[DeTomaso] Doc Abe Averages 118 Mph at Bonneville 100 Saturday- Congratulations Doc!!!!!

Mon Jun 11 23:10:19 EDT 2007

Yo Scott,

  Tom made some good points but let me add a couple corrections and comments in general 

  1.  First off you don't need to add a full cage for speeds up to 165 mph. None of the sanctioning ORR groups that I know of require a roll cage or fire suppression for the  Grand Sport Division (130-165 MPH speeds). 

  You DO need to add a roll bar similar to the one JB, Doc and others have had built and installed in their Pantera's. And as you already know make sure you check tech rules. I like the 3-point bar that Dick Drenske has built that has a removable support bar that attaches to the  floor on passenger side. And don't forget you need to make sure you have a 'dated' 5-point harness and both are installed correctly. Jason and JB are great resources on the roll bar requirements for a Pantera  

  IF you want to tech for the higher speed of 180 Mph then you DO need a 6-point cage, fire suppression and a fuel cell and you definately need the added aero mods and you also need to complete at least one ORR at a 130 average BEFORE you run faster unless you have a waiver approval in advance (race license). 

  I can't think of anything more important then the tires..........Guys running 100 or even 125 mph are at risk if there is a tire failure. As for the speed rating of tires you 1st need to check the mfg's speed rating of the tires you plan to use.  Tires that have a good rep with all the sanctioning groups are Michelin, Goodyear, and BFG. My current BFG G-Force radials are Z rated but BFG rates the tires at the higher Y (186 Mph) rating.  I can't say or write enough about making sure the tires you plan to bring are less then 3 years old, do not have any flat spots, wear or cracking.....for the guys driving under 140 mph there 'may' be some cushion but there is zero cushion at 150-175. 

  If you insist or plan to run dot legal race tires like Hoosier R6's make sure you have tire tech's approval in advance. Tech at SS like R-3's but don't like R-4's and R-5's due to tire blow out data and jerked a few guys around that had new or all most new  R-6's due to NO data at SS.  All the sanctioning groups used to be allot more flexible on tires then they are today. None of the sanctioning ORR groups are big on race tires or dot race tires period. At Silver State as an example they won't allow anyone to run full gumball race tires unless the driver has tire inner-liners and good luck finding those.  I pull off all my tires before every ORR and inspect them closely before every ORR. Another thing I appreciate at the starting line is Tech has all the drivers do a "slow-roll" so they can check the tires one last time for any nails or debris the tires may have picked up before the run.

  2.  Depending on you and the Pantera's capabilities you should be able to average 140-145 mph and run up to 165 mph on the tech speed in the Grand Sport Division with a stock 4.22  ring gear assuming you have the usual cooling mods, a solid motor and a good air to oil oil cooler or heat exchanger and a good aftermarket radiator. If you are planning to run in the 100-1335 Mph range you can 'probably' get by without an oil cooler but soon as you starting running north of 5,000 R's you definately need to make sure you have the added cooling mods.

  3.   I don't think you need any aero mods below 150 but somewhere north of 150 an air dam makes an added improvement in high speed handling. Right now my Pantera feels more 'planted' at 170-175 today then it did in 1997 at 140 and while NONE of the added mods are expensive the "lessons-learned" were....they don't need to be for you and others that run the higher end speeds in the future. I totally agree with Tommy that there is a risk running at the higher speeds. 

  But I also have to say (again) no one that I know of in 10 years and 37 ORR's later has ever lost control of their car or a Pantera UNDER 165 mph with the exception of one driver in a BMW 4-5 years ago who admitted at the awards banquet that he took his eyes "off-the-road" at something like +/- 140 mph to look at timing notes and lost control and crashed and totaled an all most new 8-series BMW. 

  Hope some of this helps.....consider it a beginning....if you are serious about joining us in the future write or call me or JB or Larry Stock off line. They ALL have great input based on experience at higher speeds. 

  Mad Dawg Antenucci 
  Team Pantera Racing
  151.5 Mph Average at NORC in May

Scott Couchman <scottcouchman at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Tom, Thanks for the input. I'm familiar with what the Silver State requires for safety equipment since I ran there last year. I'm planning to be good with all of that. What I'm particularly interested in are those things specific to Panteras. I want to make sure I don't miss anything in my preparation, and I'd like to leverage the experience of those that have gone before so I can learn from them and not repeat some of their mistakes. Scott

Tom Di Iulio wrote: Mad Dawg will chime in here with more specifics but you can visit any of
the ORR websites to get most of the info you're asking for. A couple of
the big issues at that speed is the requirement of a full rollcage and
probably an onboard fire suppression system. 
Those 2 items have kept me from moving up from my usual target speed of
115-120. although you car run up to 140 in that class without breaking
your tech speed range, you really have to consider how fast you should
be moving without additional safety equipment. I have never wanted to
install a full cage in a car that I routinely run on the street. Not
criticizing those that have, just saying it ain't for me. 
As for our cars handling that speed, you should be adding aero mods to
keep the car planted to the road surface and also changing your gear
ratios. Obviously having Z rated tires are a must as well as an
effective cooling system. 
Brakes are important but not as much as if you are running on road
courses, with plenty of gear changes and corners. 
Running ANY car at 165mph is extremely dangerous and all your efforts
should be to make the car as safe as possible should you leave the road.
I don't think most people understand how close to the edge you are at
that velocity, especially in our 35 yr old cars. 
One reason the "joke" about Dennis' death caused such an uproar was that
we all knew it could absolutely happen as described. 
Tom Di Iulio
Denver, CO

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
On Behalf Of Scott Couchman
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 6:39 AM
To: Mad Dog Antenucci; detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Doc Abe Averages 118 Mph at Bonneville 100
Saturday- Congratulations Doc!!!!!

Mad Dog, Can you provide a list (and maybe short description) of the
changes from stock that are required to make the Pantera a stable
platform to tech and run 165mph in an ORR.

Mad Dog Antenucci wrote: Joe "Doc" Abe, called
me on his way home from Wendover, Utah, to say he and his Pantera
finished the 2-way 100 mile run at the B-100 averaging 118 Mph in the
Touring Division on Saturday. He also completed the 1,450 round trip
drive from home driving his Pantera all the way. 

You can see some of the course video in corners on the MKM Racing web
site www.openroadracing.com. The course has some challenging turns and
elevation changes.

Doc mentioned he had planned to enter Grand Touring Division (140 Mph)
but forgot before he got to Tech Inspection that his harness was more
then 3 years old so he got dumbed down in speed to Touring. He gave a
real short race report but said race conditions were near perfect with
no wind or heat. 

He also mentioned Mike Borders was the big gun with his X-winston cup
M&M cup car averaging 187 Mph which is damned impressive on a 2-lane
crowned road with elevation changes and real turns. And my favorite race
car and driver this weekend was again Charlie Friend in Charlie's '65
Corvair who finally exceeded 200 mph hitting 201 Mph in the radar trap
for the first time, Charlie has consistently averaged 160-170 mph in the
past in that Corvair. Charlie went off the Silver State road 3 years ago
after a rear tire blow-out at about 160 and totaled his Corvair so it
was a big deal seeing Charlie return earlier in May with a new Corvair
when Jason, Eliot and I ran at the NORC. 

Right now Doc is on a serious ORR campaign. He's planning to run the
MKM Gamblers Run in July and the Pony Express in August and join us back
at the Silver State in September.

Way to go Doc. Very proud of you. 
P.S. Don't forget to change out your harness! ;-]>

Mad Dawg Antenucci 
Team Pantera Racing 
The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing 
www.teampanteraracing.com
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Mad Dawg Antenucci 
Team Pantera Racing 
  The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing 
www.teampanteraracing.com