3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to
and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery
for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
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The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. life power list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson@home.se> wrote:
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
Tomas
<-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD
From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to
and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery
for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. life power list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. .
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
<rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp>
All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: [1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <[2]guson@home.se> wrote: The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [[3]guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: [4]guson@home.se;[5]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [6]MikeLDrew@aol.com;[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <[8]guson@home.se> To: [9]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [10]MikeLDrew@aol.com; [11]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [[12]tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: [13]MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: [14]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[15]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <[16]terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1][17]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso <[2][18]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift <[3][19]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: "[4][20]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5][21]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> "[6][22]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> <[7][23]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso <[8][24]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9][25]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10][26]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. [27]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. [28]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. [29]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. [30]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. [31]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. [32]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. [33]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. [34]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. [35]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. [36]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> [37]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > [39]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > [40]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [41]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [43]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [44]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. <rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp> References 1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. mailto:guson@home.se 3. mailto:guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 4. mailto:guson@home.se 5. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 6. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:guson@home.se 9. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 10. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 11. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 12. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 13. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 14. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 17. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 18. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 19. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 20. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 21. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 22. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 23. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 25. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 28. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 29. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 30. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 31. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 32. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 33. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 34. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 35. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 36. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 37. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 39. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 41. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 43. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 44. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
Wow, Is that a Sansui alternator. Looks like one of their IED washing machines running. That should equate to some problems. jerry knotts On 10/7/2016 7:51 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso wrote:
All,
Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car.
Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it:
[1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now.
I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight?
I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you?
Mike Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <[2]guson@home.se> wrote:
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [[3]guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: [4]guson@home.se;[5]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [6]MikeLDrew@aol.com;[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <[8]guson@home.se> To: [9]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [10]MikeLDrew@aol.com; [11]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [[12]tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: [13]MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: [14]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[15]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <[16]terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1][17]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso <[2][18]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift <[3][19]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: "[4][20]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5][21]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> "[6][22]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> <[7][23]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso <[8][24]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9][25]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10][26]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. [27]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. [28]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. [29]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. [30]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. [31]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. [32]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. [33]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. [34]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. [35]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. [36]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> [37]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > [39]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > [40]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [41]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [43]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [44]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
<rebuild kit.jpg>
<10si schematic.bmp>
References
1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. mailto:guson@home.se 3. mailto:guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 4. mailto:guson@home.se 5. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 6. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:guson@home.se 9. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 10. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 11. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 12. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 13. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 14. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 17. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 18. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 19. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 20. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 21. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 22. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 23. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 25. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 28. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 29. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 30. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 31. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 32. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 33. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 34. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 35. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 36. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 37. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 39. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 41. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 43. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 44. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
Wow, Is that a Sansui alternator. Looks like one of their IED washing machines running. That should equate to some problems. jerry knotts On 10/7/2016 7:51 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso wrote: All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: [1][1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" [2]<[2]guson@home.se> wrote: The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [[[3]3]guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: [[4]4]guson@home.se;[[5]5]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [[6]6]MikeLDrew@aol.com;[[7]7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson [8]<[8]guson@home.se> To: [[9]9]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [[10]10]MikeLDrew@aol.com; [[11]11]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [[[12]12]tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: [[13]13]MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: [[14]14]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso [15]<[15]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" [16]<[16]terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1][[17]17]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso [18]<[2][18]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift [19]<[3][19]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: [20]"[4][20]MikeLDrew@aol.com" [21]<[5][21]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> [22]"[6][22]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> [23]<[7][23]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso [24]<[8][24]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso [25]<[9][25]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10][[26]26]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. [27][27]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. [28][28]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. [29][29]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. [30][30]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. [31][31]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. [32][32]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. [33][33]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. [34][34]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. [35][35]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. [36][36]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> [[37]37]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> [38][38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > [[39]39]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > [40][40]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [[41]41]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [42][42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [[43]43]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [44][44]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. <rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp> References 1. [45]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. [46]mailto:guson@home.se 3. [47]mailto:guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 4. [48]mailto:guson@home.se 5. [49]mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 6. [50]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 7. [51]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. [52]mailto:guson@home.se 9. [53]mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 10. [54]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 11. [55]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 12. [56]mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 13. [57]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 14. [58]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. [59]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. [60]mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 17. [61]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 18. [62]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 19. [63]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 20. [64]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 21. [65]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 22. [66]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 23. [67]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. [68]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 25. [69]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. [70]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. [71]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 28. [72]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 29. [73]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 30. [74]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 31. [75]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 32. [76]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 33. [77]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 34. [78]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 35. [79]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 36. [80]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 37. [81]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 38. [82]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 39. [83]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 40. [84]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 41. [85]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 42. [86]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 43. [87]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 44. [88]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [89]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [90]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li nks above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis t messages. References 1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. mailto:[2]guson@home.se 3. mailto:3]guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 4. mailto:4]guson@home.se 5. mailto:5]tipo874@gmail.com 6. mailto:6]MikeLDrew@aol.com 7. mailto:7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:[8]guson@home.se 9. mailto:9]tipo874@gmail.com 10. mailto:10]MikeLDrew@aol.com 11. mailto:11]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 12. mailto:12]tipo874@gmail.com 13. mailto:13]MikeLDrew@aol.com 14. mailto:14]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. mailto:[15]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. mailto:[16]terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 17. mailto:17]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 18. mailto:[2][18]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 19. mailto:[3][19]julian_kift@hotmail.com 20. mailto:[4][20]MikeLDrew@aol.com 21. mailto:[5][21]MikeLDrew@aol.com 22. mailto:[6][22]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 23. mailto:[7][23]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. mailto:[8][24]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 25. mailto:[9][25]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. mailto:26]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 28. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 29. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 30. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 31. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 32. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 33. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 34. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 35. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 36. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 37. mailto:37]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 39. mailto:39]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 41. mailto:41]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 43. mailto:43]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 44. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 45. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 46. mailto:guson@home.se 47. mailto:guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 48. mailto:guson@home.se 49. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 50. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 51. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 52. mailto:guson@home.se 53. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 54. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 55. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 56. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 57. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 58. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 59. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 60. mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 61. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 62. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 63. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 64. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 65. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 66. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 67. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 68. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 69. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 70. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 71. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 72. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 73. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 74. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 75. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 76. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 77. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 78. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 79. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 80. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 81. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 82. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 83. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 84. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 85. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 86. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 87. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 88. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 89. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 90. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
Would you have a link to /or some photos of the mounting brackets to see if there is an obvious rigidity/resonance issue? (might be able to add a stiffener) Joe -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Mike Drew via DeTomaso Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 20:52 PM To: Tomas Gunnarsson Cc: <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone
I would want that +2" bolt to be a "snug" fit to the alternator bracket. A 10mm body bolt would have a 0.006" loose fit (so so good). The bolt body should be in both ears with a washer used to allow threads to be outside the ear. And the holes in the ears be the same as the hole in the alternator (or tighter) so the 10mm is also a snug fit The other would be either the bracket gap between ears be a snug fit or use washers to achieve. And finally, once the sliding bolt is snug for belt tension, is the through bolt snugged so the ears are clamping the alternator -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 21:21 PM To: 'Mike Drew'; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Would you have a link to /or some photos of the mounting brackets to see if there is an obvious rigidity/resonance issue? (might be able to add a stiffener) Joe -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Mike Drew via DeTomaso Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 20:52 PM To: Tomas Gunnarsson Cc: <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
Whoa dude, that's bad ju-ju. You've got one of those kits that put the alternator back and to the passenger side of the A/C compressor it looks like. I have no idea how stable one of those is supposed to be, but certainly something looks loose. Best to get in there and troubleshoot the mounting. Yes, vibration like that is probably wrecking havoc on your alternator shaft bearings. Get a new alternator and fix the mounting. Asa Jay Quoting Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car.
Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it:
Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now.
I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight?
I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you?
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson@home.se> wrote:
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
Tomas
<-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD
From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to
and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery
for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
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From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. life power list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. .
_______________________________________________
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<rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp>
-- Asa Jay Laughton - sent from somewhere other than home ****************************************************** http://www.w7tsc.org http://www.teampanteraracing.com
Mike, Very obvious that the alternator pivot boss bolt to support hole i/d are an ill matched size. Drill and steel sleeve the mounting ears and use spacers to set belt on plane with other pulleys. Jeff On Oct 7, 2016, at 7:51 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
All,
Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car.
Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it:
[1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now.
I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight?
I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you?
Mike Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <[2]guson@home.se> wrote:
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[15]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <[16]terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][17]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2][18]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3][19]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4][20]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5][21]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6][22]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7][23]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8][24]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9][25]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10][26]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. [27]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. [28]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. [29]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. [30]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. [31]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. [32]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. [33]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. [34]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. [35]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. [36]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [37]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [[3]guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: [4]guson@home.se;[5]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [6]MikeLDrew@aol.com;[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <[8]guson@home.se> To: [9]tipo874@gmail.com Cc: [10]MikeLDrew@aol.com; [11]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [[12]tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: [13]MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: [14]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [41]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [42]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [43]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [44]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
<rebuild kit.jpg>
<10si schematic.bmp>
References
1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. mailto:guson@home.se 3. mailto:guido_detomaso@prodigy.net 4. mailto:guson@home.se 5. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 6. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:guson@home.se 9. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 10. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 11. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 12. mailto:tipo874@gmail.com 13. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 14. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. mailto:terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov 17. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 18. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 19. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 20. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 21. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 22. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 23. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 25. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 28. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 29. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 30. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 31. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 32. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 33. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 34. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 35. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 36. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 37. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 39. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 40. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 41. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 42. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 43. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 44. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
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Mike, The alternator mounting plates come in Ford & GM alternator variants as the mounting on the GM is much narrower, you don't by chance have a Ford bracket with the GM one wire alternator that has not had the correct spacers applied? If I recall a couple of weeks ago you put me onto the IPSCO product that relocates the alternator tensioner mounting for better tension, having recommende dit do you have that? Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 5:51 PM To: Tomas Gunnarsson Cc: <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew [https://i.ytimg.com/vi/05CddX-lbew/maxresdefault.jpg]<http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew> Pantera alternator shake, rattle and roll....<http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew> youtu.be Pantera with Kirk Evans flat firewall kit and GM three-wire alternator. After multiple failures I investigated with the engine running and discovered violent... Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson@home.se> wrote:
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
Tomas
<-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD
From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to
and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery
for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. life power list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. .
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<rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp>
The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The
Mike, The alternator mounting plates come in Ford & GM alternator variants as the mounting on the GM is much narrower, you don't by chance have a Ford bracket with the GM one wire alternator that has not had the correct spacers applied? If I recall a couple of weeks ago you put me onto the IPSCO product that relocates the alternator tensioner mounting for better tension, having recommende dit do you have that? Julian __________________________________________________________________ From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 5:51 PM To: Tomas Gunnarsson Cc: <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... All, Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car. Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it: [1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew [2][maxresdefault.jpg] [3]Pantera alternator shake, rattle and roll.... youtu.be Pantera with Kirk Evans flat firewall kit and GM three-wire alternator. After multiple failures I investigated with the engine running and discovered violent... Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now. I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight? I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you? Mike Sent from my iPhone On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson@home.se> wrote: triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
Tomas
<-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit
OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD
From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from
alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that
sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt.
3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>:
All,
Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on.
When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely.
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought a new one. No problem since.
"A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Dawn Spacecraft Team
Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Mike, I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some thoughts; i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have to constantly charge ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and never had a problem since. iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Hi guys, Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 Panteras (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain
turned to snow which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in splendid sunshine. We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and uses a GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas this spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it started acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally it quit and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed it was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, which did exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. But it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, once again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit and showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life and showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power for awhile), then discharged again. Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but rather that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As electrons are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it blindly. What say all of you? FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? Mike
References
1. [4]mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 2. [5]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 3. [6]mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 4. [7]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 5. [8]mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 6. [9]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. [10]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. [11]mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 9. [12]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. [13]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. the the then the the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
<rebuild kit.jpg> <10si schematic.bmp>
References 1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 2. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 3. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew 4. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov 5. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 6. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com 7. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 8. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 11. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 12. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 13. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
Good info and clarification. I haven't encountered this diode trio but am not hip to the latest stuff. Looks like a means to give the regulator its own source of power outside the battery. It dawns on me, I don't rack up huge mileage but I've got that same Pantera style Ford alternator with remote regulator on two vehicles, no failures so far knock on wood. Also used on Cessna light aircraft, maybe others. Just sayin' GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: guido_detomaso@prodigy.net Cc: tipo874@gmail.com; MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> | | | From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. | Good info and clarification. I haven't encountered this diode trio but am not hip to the latest stuff. Looks like a means to give the regulator its own source of power outside the battery. It dawns on me, I don't rack up huge mileage but I've got that same Pantera style Ford alternator with remote regulator on two vehicles, no failures so far knock on wood. Also used on Cessna light aircraft, maybe others. Just sayin' GD __________________________________________________________________ From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: guido_detomaso@prodigy.net Cc: tipo874@gmail.com; MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 12:29 AM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso@prodigy.net] Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM To: guson@home.se;tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com;detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes. OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator. Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted. Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong. GD From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson@home.se> To: tipo874@gmail.com Cc: MikeLDrew@aol.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas? Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one. Tomas <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande-----> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874@gmail.com] Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM To: MikeLDrew@aol.com Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt. > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>: > > All, > > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when fans, lights etc are on. > > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits completely. > > Mike > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)" <terry.himes@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: >> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought >> a new one. >> No problem since. >> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan, >> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!" >> >> Terry W. Himes >> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory >> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team >> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead >> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261 >> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213 >> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147 >> >> [1]thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> >> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift@hotmail.com> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM >> To: "[4]MikeLDrew@aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew@aol.com>, >> "[6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" >> <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> >> Mike, >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some >> thoughts; >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to have >> to constantly charge >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing, over a >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my GT40; >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and >> never had a problem since. >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground >> Julian >> ________________________________ >> From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM >> To: [10]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues.... >> Hi guys, >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24 >> Panteras >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano. It >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then >> turned to snow >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit. >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home in >> splendid >> sunshine. >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and >> uses a >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas >> this >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it >> started >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then finally >> it quit >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed >> it >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one, >> which did >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home. >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today. >> But >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home, >> once >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it quit >> and >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to life >> and >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery power >> for >> awhile), then discharged again. >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but >> rather >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As >> electrons >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it >> blindly. >> What say all of you? >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow, which >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway???? >> Mike >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:thimes@jpl.nasa.gov >> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 3. mailto:julian_kift@hotmail.com >> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 5. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com >> 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com >> 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> 10. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >> DeTomaso mailing list >> DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. >> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. . _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
participants (8)
-
Asa Jay Laughton -
Guido deTomaso -
Jeff Cobb -
Jerry Knotts -
Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. -
Julian Kift -
Mike Drew -
Tomas Gunnarsson