Dear Mark, Thank you for sharing a factual account of the history of the Forum. For a while there, things seemed to resemble a certain "echo chamber" discussed in the national news. Warmest regards, Chuck Engles -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of msm@portata.com Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 2:30 PM To: Michael Shortt; Dick Koch Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com; detomaso@poca.com; LaurieFerrari@aol.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Laurie's vision of current topics (be warned ... long and tedious) Let me clear up some clear up ... The email-based forum was setup years ago by Any Polling on a server he owned (realbig.com). This forum is not and never was a POCA forum. It was always open to everyone. After many years, Andy moved on to other things. Asa Jay stepped up to maintain the forum along with his volunteer work on the POCA Store which he did for many years. (A big thanks to Asa Jay and Andy for their many years of daily work on it.) POCA also stepped up by contributing hosting services on the poca.com server, hence the name change from @realbig.com to @poca.com. We set up a modern web forum on poca.com, but it never got much traction. Most people prefer getting email delivery over having to go to a web site. Those that prefer web sites were already well established on the PI web forum. As far as the printer issue -- we have been down that road a few times over the years with a few different printers. There is much more to printing than just putting ink on paper. The printer needs to layout the pages for printing, assemble the printed pages in the right order, not lose any pages on any copy, staple/bind, ingest our mailing address list into their computers, create the labels, attach labels, and get everything to their local post office on time. Much of the work a printer does is not in the ink to paper step, so much of that work is a fixed cost that does not change much with print volume. If some members opt for electronic delivery, there is not that much of a total cost reduction. Jack and Mike have run the numbers with various printers. They may be able to add some details. As with everything else in life, a high price does not guarantee good production/service, but a low price usually does lead to problems. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Michael Shortt" <michaelsavga@gmail.com> To: "Dick Koch" <redcatman74@gmail.com> Cc: "detomaso@server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>; "detomaso@poca.com" <detomaso@poca.com>; "LaurieFerrari@aol.com" <laurieferrari@aol.com> Sent: 5/31/2016 8:21:55 AM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Laurie's vision of current topics (be warned ... long and tedious)

Thank you Dick for your thoughts,

Let me clear up a misconception that refuses to die.

The former email forum had been changed from @realbig.com to @poca.com

at some some in the not too distant past.

The new website is hosted and uses a base programming supplied by ClubExpress,

this is software, security, et al that we could never afford as a stand alone club,

not for 5,000, 10,000 or even 20,000.

The website is not really located at www.poca.com, it lives at poca.clubexpress.com

and www.poca.com merely points to it. Think of the website as property,

it is a fixed thing at a fixed place, it is THERE, think of poca.com as a street sign that says

poca.com, one can always go into a neighborhood and move all the street signs around

124 Pine street can become 123 Alpine street overnight, but the house is still where it always was.

The email forum is not compatible with ClubExpress for lots of reasons, software, etc.

The street sign can only point to one place, thus it points to the website.

and not the email forum.

Had the powers that be had left the email forum namen @realbig.com, this would never have been an issue.

That's first and foremost why the email forum had to go away.

If anybody owes the old email forum a debt of gratitude, it would be me, for after I left the club years ago,

it was my only contact with Pantera owners.

It was how everybody knew me and I seriously doubt that without being one of the top ten contributors

for the last 7 years that I would have had the name recognition to be elected President.

Now having also said that, let me also say that the email forum was not a friend to POCA, it was and remains

a place of petty bickering, name calling and ignorance put forth by a few that makes the whole look bad.

It always has attracted loudmouths and bullies and membership in the club suffered as a result.

It was like have Cousin Eddie be the welcoming committee at the Country Club, after meeting him,

very few people decided to venture inside.

Cut to the present, with our name off the email forum, membership is growing at a rate the club has not seen

in decades.

The new website has a better forum that is everything the old one was not, nor could it ever be.

All it needs is to be used by members, the email forum in its last week as poca.com had 27 users,

more than half were non members, those that were members represented less than 2% of POCA's membership.

New members in the last three weeks are 3x those members alone.

It was a solid decision, it was a necessary decision, for the new website would not exist if the email forum still did.

While it was picked up by somebody, even that was not done as agreed, the club honored it word and provided

what was agreed upon, the new email list admin did not honor the agreement for its adoption.

POCA is far better off without that forum in every measurable way, membership and civility being the most important.

Michael Shortt

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Dick Koch <redcatman74@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Mike, nice to see you stepping up and getting ahead of this, with some good suggestions on how to improve the raffle.

This is a case in point, where the savings that could be had if the newsletter did not have to be printed and mailed, part of those savings could be used to fund some of the more expensive raffle items you mentioned.

Also, with the elimination of the newsletter printing and mailing expense, color graphics could be included at no expense to the club, improving that publication content and readibility.

In addition, rather than thinking of raising the POCA membership fee, the savings would allow the club to reduce the membership fee, while offering an overall better product to it's customers, the POCA members..

In my opinion, for what it is worth, the trade off on discontinuing the printing and mailing of the newsletter versus an improved, more timely, and more efficient online delivery of the publication is obvious.

The net affect, following the old business marketing axiom of the price elasticity of demand, would be to set the stage for POCA to attract more members, with the obvious affect of increasing the membership, thereby increasing revenue to continue to provide more value add to the membership as a whole, and spreading the "gospel" of the DeTomaso brand.

One thing I believe is that underneath all the comments made about the direction the board is taking the club, is that everyone wants to improve the club, what it offers it's members, and expand the uniqueness the DeTomaso brand.

Make no mistake, I have not agreed with certain aspects of the board's plans, more specifically discontinuing this email forum. I communicated that to the board and told them dropping ownership and support for the forum was a mistake.

As in the case of "market demand" and the generous efforts of some very dedicated Pantera brethren, the forum was reconstituted. Who knows, maybe the club will decide in the future it should be included under it's banner.

However, dropping this forum did not sway me from supporting the board's overall plan to improve the POCA membership experience.

Given the premise that everyone wants their club to improve that experience, there comes a time to put aside one's personnel preferences, and to look at "the big picture" and what is in the best interest of the club and the DeTomaso brand.

As before, peace to all my cat brethren, and a closing thought from Abraham Lincoln:

"We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses."

Dick koch - Atlanta

On May 30, 2016 9:41 PM, "Mike Burnett via DeTomaso" < detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote:

...

Good evening ladies and everyone else on the forum, I would like to express some thoughts about the

raffle during this past Fun Rally.

As Vice President of POCA it is my responsibility to do many things as a Board member, but also be

the Raffle Master at the Fun Rally.

In reply to Laurie and Effie's postings, I agree that the raffle has considerable room for improvement. And even though

this was my first POCA Raffle, I have been apart of many Car Shows and other big motor car related events that

included a raffle, but didn't want to reinvent the proverbial wheel by changing anything about the way past POCA raffles have been run. As it turns out, there were quite a few things that could have helped make it run smoother.

On the one hand I am proud that through my efforts in dealing with our vendors and my wife Chrissy

spending four months hitting crafts fairs and sales ( her budget from POCA was challenging) and through

the generosity of our vendors and many others, we were able to have almost $9,000.00 worth of raffle prizes.

Unfortunately, if you were there, not many of the prizes were bigger ticket in value, instead averaging $25.00

to $40.00 including over 40 T-shirts on top of that. We did have a good showing of bigger value items in the $200.00 to $530.00

valuations.

Even with a strong showing of raffle prizes and with lots of help from Chrissy, Joe Stockstt ( our POCA Secretary)

Ed Mendez ( our POCA PR and Advertising lead) and even Michael Shortt ( our POCA President) and myself, the raffle

went almost an hour and a half in a hot room (no air conditioning) after a full day, banquet and cocktails.

In spite of all our efforts to move things along....I'm sure it seemed like the raffle that would never end!

So, I will present a new plan for the Fun Rally Raffle to the POCA Board at our July meeting. It will include

having a general raffle where tickets will be drawn hourly all day Saturday with winning numbers posted.

Proposing to the Board that we use seed money from POCA to purchase not only some big ticket

prizes ( TV, Blu-ray player and maybe a trip to harbor freight for useful tools gauges, etc. that we all could use) but

maybe some other items of interest like gift cards ( of real value) or even plane tickets???

Who knows, it is all on the table and I am asking for all of you to give me some input with your ideas.

Thanks,

Mike Burnett

VP POCA

-----Original Message----- From: Effie Richards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com> To: laurieferrari [1]laurieferrari@aol.com who Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com>; detomaso <detomaso@poca.com> Sent: Mon, May 30, 2016 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Laurie's vision of current topics (be warned ... long and tedious) Thank you so much for saying it so eloquently! Laurie's point of you is well laid out and she is a Pantera owner for years and years and a member of POCA for the same! I would like to agree with her proposed method of awarding the prizes as well. Other car shows do it the same way by posting winners ticket numbers and no one falls asleep. My husband ushered me out of the room halfway through. Although Mike Burnett had a great sense of humor while presenting the awards, after an hour or so, Robert could no longer stay awake. The food was not good, I agree, but that's not the organizers' fault, they did the best they could to give all all of us a good time. I would like to suggest that we have better organized run events next year, with maps, a front leader, a middle leader and a tail leader for those who were not able to make the traffic lights, like we offered when we hosted in San Diego 2 years ago. I think we all learned things from this experience and corrections/improvements will be made for next year's rally. No matter what, I hope to see mailings of the Profiles since my husband and others maybe, don't do email. Always remaining members of our POCA club, always! Sent from Effie's iPad > On May 30, 2016, at 2:14 AM, Laurie Ferrari via DeTomaso <[2]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote: > > Hello out there in Pantera Email Forum Land. Huge thanks to Kurt as I > am another who has always loved our communication in this way. > For anyone who might be confused, just to be clear, I'm Laurie Basile/ > aka Laurie Ferrari on here as that's my email name. I'm one in the > same in case you are looking up any of my old postings in the archives, > which I don't advise. > I have some of my own thoughts on the new status of POCA. > While there's no question that a stock, unmodified, unmolested Pantera > is a rare and specially revered item, however the Pantera Club (POCA) > and its Website is not to be confused with that same logic. The Club > has needed modifications for far too long, most notably reconsideration > of modernization and efforts to offer more to the members, and the > opening of paths that were forever encumbered with roadblocks. > I think the main beef of the many members/lurkers who have been > complaining of late is due to the possible loss of the email forum. > Yes? Or, some perhaps are not used to the no nonsense, energetic, > assertive, personality of Michael Shortt. Well, as board meetings have > been open to members I must say I was truly shocked at the rude and > unprofessional demeanor of some of the oldest of Board Members. And > those on here who are seeking fault and trying to paint a negative > picture of the new direction of POCA, I say, if any of you are > so touchy and hypersensitive, you'd not have been able to tolerate the > myriads of posted comments through the years that could be considered > the most non politically correct on here and greatest examples of > taunts and tongue in cheek comments on everything from gayness, to > racial and political insults, or the worst (personally offensive) the > wing modifications on GT5 Panteras. ... Come on folks. What I see > that is happening is that Mike Shortt's vision and those of the > progressive Board members is one that many have begged for. That being > one of a more professionally represented, respectable club (except for > our more private, less respectable ramblings on here) one that's more > of a Class Act rather than a knitting party, and more representative of > the rarity and beauty of our cars, the wealth of knowledge > and expertise of our members, and the generosity, helpfulness, and > camaraderie of our people. I'd say Michael sees and is enacting, > remember....with Board and Chapter Representative approval, a vision of > the possibilities and potential of our organization to be more > transparent as to the inner workings of major POCA decisions. Those in > the know can not argue about the fact that this has been something > sorely lacking in the past with regard to political issues, election > fairness, and finances, i.e. comparative shopping for our needs, > insurance, printing and so on. > For the few to make suggestions or even comments that Mr. Shortt is a > bigot or the usual gay comments from the peanut gallery.... shame > on you! Those comments are just as untrue and inappropriate as they've > ever been on here. But we grin and bare it and realize any such past > comments would never be posted if serious. Or those who make such > comments can look up the definition of "Psychological transference." I > personally think a "Thank You" is far more appropriate for all the > time, effort, and changes Michael is trying to implement! When the word > went out that races were wanted at the Fun Rally, the first thing I > recall he did was make contact and plans for such. It's ridiculous and > unacceptable for anyone to be rude and insulting to those doing their > best to help us have a better organization. > I recently renewed my membership which I feel would be great if it was > reduced a bit in cost (as it used to be) as I'd like the option to get > only the "Profiles Magazine" in print form.. the Newsletter is > perfectly suited for an online reference... (again, my opinion) and > which I seem to hear would save the club something like $26,000 a > year. On our new POCA Website I am able to look up old articles in > Profiles... especially enjoy the ease of being able to find ones about > my car and me, issue 2010 #1, and my SSCC synopsis, in 2000, #3. That's > a whole lot easier than searching my own computer room and closet > filled with years old multi-curricular lesson plans and old > publications from POCA, and three other car clubs. I really love the > idea of these publications being available ON LINE; it is quite modern > and convenient. > Insofar as the survey regarding POCA's Fun Rally...As always there were > goods and not so goods. The good, naturally, is getting to see and > socialize with old friends and meet new ones. The bad is that the Plaza > remains to be, not the most appealing of choices. I don't know about > the new furnishings but I do know that the entire floor where the > hospitality and banquet was held was covered in sheets over the > construction and warnings of potential injury....I kind of felt early > on that it'd be a good idea, as a few others, to opt to stay at the > Golden Nugget. It's right across the street and very nice! As usual > though, at our event, the hospitality room opportunity with all the > Club stores was and is always great. The sessions, especially Scott > Mead's photography session was more than excellent. The run to Mt. > Charles was beautiful. I didn't have a car there so I was so grateful > to Lori Drew who hooked me up with a ride with a super nice fellow from > PCNC, Bayani; many thanks Bayani! The banquet food was something I'm > unable to compare easily as to the awfulness compared to any past Fun > Rally. The Plaza buffets were generally decent in the past, even used > to get a bottle of red and white wine on each table, but something > definitely went amiss this year. As I was seated at a table with Terry > Himes (Mars' space scientist) and friends, the best way to describe the > salmon was freeze dried and suitable (almost) as astronaut food. The > water was undrinkable, maybe tainted with some alien creatures, toxic > chemicals, or poisoned purposefully so people would buy liquor during > the banquet. Dessert, can't comment, didn't try. The raffle... well > that's yet another story! I've been the one in the past who once had > the job of recruiting prizes for months, organizing the displays, > getting everything to Vegas, and then announcing the prizes at > the dinner and I vividly recall being reprimanded for how long it took > to disseminate prizes at the banquet ... BUT...in good fairness to me, > i took a fraction of what happened this year.. which was in ponderous > tortoise-like, multi-hours long, motion, so much to the fact that I > literally made up for the previous two nights of lost sleep. I mean > really, for hundreds of prizes from a few really nice car related, > down to insignificant, and each prize announced in humorous but mostly > painful detail ... down to a slew of t-shirts, one by one... and then > waiting for the comatose winner to notice or be nudged awake that he or > she'd won and then have to walk what seemed like 3 blocks to the podium > to claim the prize... Good Lord! And I don't blame the presenter as I > know what a difficult and commendable job this is.. it's the SYSTEM, > not the person! I know many of you like to poke fun at the Corvette > Clan but .... the way they've done raffles, at least the National > ones, is to post a list of winning tickets #s and during the event, > people go over periodically to see if they won, and get the prize from > those in charge. Or those so inclined can stay at the prize area and > watch the tickets being drawn. All the contributors are posted in > advance and the donors are thanked and acknowledged on banners, signs, > visuals, business cards, etc. There's always music and dancing and > some sort of entertainment. We used to have music, karaoke, and > entertainment. What happened??? > So in conclusion, I like both the old (forum) and the new (POCA) and > hope that people will be more cordial and appreciative of the efforts > of Michael and those who work for us. > Again much gratitude to Kurt and all involved for the Forum being alive > and well. I am not in favor of the fact though that I very recently > got a malicious malware bug that caused me to wipe out my > entire computer... and start over, not saying it was from here.. BUT > I've never had that problem before and I did have an excellent Internet > security program installed. So I write with hopes that the risks are > not found here! > Can't leave without a big hello to Nathan of the North. Always > great to hear from you and see your uplifting greetings. And to Bob > Levitt...hope you remember me as I was out there on the Santa Monica > pier to take pictures of you and your son upon your take > off for the Gumball Cross Country race way back when. Still have them > saved somewhere and they were on my former POCA album. Btw where are > those albums? > OK.... off and running and just might see lots of you at Pantera > Palooza! > Cheerio, > Laurie > _______________________________________________ > > > Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes > DeTomaso mailing list > [3]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com > [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:laurieferrari@aol.com 2. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 5. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

_______________________________________________

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--

Michael L. Shortt Savannah, Georgia www.michaelshortt.com michael@michaelshortt.com 912-232-9390

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Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.