New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open. Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening. Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM. So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool. Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient. Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit. Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way. I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE. I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed. With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm! After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds. When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator. Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator. The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side. I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article. I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still. Stephen Nelson For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open. Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening. Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM. So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool. Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient. Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit. Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way. I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE. I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed. With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm! After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds. When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator. Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator. The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side. I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article. I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still. Stephen Nelson References 1. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK
You are a genius! I'm printing this for my husband and looking forward to your article in the Newsletter! Bravo! Sent from Effie's iPhone
On Oct 1, 2016, at 8:11 PM, Stephen <steve@snclocks.com> wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK _______________________________________________
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Here is a photo of a prototype, hard to tell, but it does look like there was a rear glass. -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 23:12 PM To: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. .... Stephen Nelson
I would like to see more photos, outdoors sitting alongside other Pantera's. But with that said and only seeing the two photos you have in your gallery, my opinion has changed. I had my doubts that it would look significantly different, but I must say that I think adding the rear window easily adds a few thousand dollars to the car's appeal. Honestly, I think it gives it a really nice clean look. It -does- look like it's meant to be there. You did a great job of engineering to make it work. I'm anxious to read the article. :) Asa Jay Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane, WA ****************************** [1]http://w7tsc.org [2]http://www.teampanteraracing.com On 10/1/2016 8:11 PM, Stephen wrote: For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open. Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening. Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM. So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool. Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient. Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit. Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1][3]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way. I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE. I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed. With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm! After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds. When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator. Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator. The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side. I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article. I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still. Stephen Nelson References 1. [4]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj K _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li nks above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis t messages. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - [7]www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date: 10/01/16 References 1. http://w7tsc.org/ 2. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/ 3. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 4. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK 5. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 7. http://www.avg.com/
Hey guys........the car you're looking at is a clay mockup so there actually may not be a "rear window" just blank black space. Also notice the vents on the rear deck lid inner sail panels to exhaust engine bay air. . . . . . I'm thinking that even with a glass they still had to move all that hot air out the deck lid vents......just my thoughts. Leslie A. Gray
On Oct 1, 2016, at 10:20 PM, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay@asajay.com> wrote:
I would like to see more photos, outdoors sitting alongside other Pantera's. But with that said and only seeing the two photos you have in your gallery, my opinion has changed. I had my doubts that it would look significantly different, but I must say that I think adding the rear window easily adds a few thousand dollars to the car's appeal. Honestly, I think it gives it a really nice clean look. It -does- look like it's meant to be there. You did a great job of engineering to make it work. I'm anxious to read the article. :) Asa Jay Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane, WA ****************************** [1]http://w7tsc.org [2]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 10/1/2016 8:11 PM, Stephen wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1][3]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1. [4]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj K
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis t messages.
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - [7]www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date: 10/01/16
References
1. http://w7tsc.org/ 2. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/ 3. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 4. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK 5. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 7. http://www.avg.com/ _______________________________________________
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Here is a direct link to the finished product: http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-HprC5cq/A In comparison, yes, the clay mock-up appeared to have vents in the decklid. Perhaps that was something that didn't make it to the final design but should have in order to install rear glass; which in the above linked photo looks pretty awesome. Asa Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane, WA ****************************** http://w7tsc.org http://www.teampanteraracing.com On 10/1/2016 10:26 PM, L GRAY wrote:
Hey guys........the car you're looking at is a clay mockup so there actually may not be a "rear window" just blank black space. Also notice the vents on the rear deck lid inner sail panels to exhaust engine bay air. . . . . . I'm thinking that even with a glass they still had to move all that hot air out the deck lid vents......just my thoughts.
Leslie A. Gray
On Oct 1, 2016, at 10:20 PM, Asa Jay Laughton<asajay@asajay.com> wrote: I would like to see more photos, outdoors sitting alongside other Pantera's. But with that said and only seeing the two photos you have in your gallery, my opinion has changed. I had my doubts that it would look significantly different, but I must say that I think adding the rear window easily adds a few thousand dollars to the car's appeal. Honestly, I think it gives it a really nice clean look. It -does- look like it's meant to be there. You did a great job of engineering to make it work. I'm anxious to read the article. :) Asa Jay Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane, WA ****************************** [1]http://w7tsc.org [2]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 10/1/2016 8:11 PM, Stephen wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1][3]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1. [4]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj K
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----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - [7]www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date: 10/01/16
References
1. http://w7tsc.org/ 2. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/ 3. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 4. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK 5. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 7. http://www.avg.com/ _______________________________________________
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----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date: 10/01/16
4 lug (Mamgusta?) wheels? From: "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf@embarqmail.com> To: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan Here is a photo of a prototype, hard to tell, but it does look like there was a rear glass. -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 23:12 PM To: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. .... Stephen Nelson _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. 4 lug (Mamgusta?) wheels? __________________________________________________________________ From: "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf@embarqmail.com> To: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2016 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan Here is a photo of a prototype, hard to tell, but it does look like there was a rear glass. -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:[1]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 23:12 PM To: [2]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out. .... Stephen Nelson _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [3]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [webicon_gray.png] [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 2. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 3. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
Stephen, I am sorry I posted that photo as I didn't intend for it to side track your post. I just want to show and agree with AJL's comments that the window "completes" the rear, ESPECIALLY if one has a induction system that needs to be seen. Good to hear that your method of controlling the under hood and air induction temperature is working. Just hope the upper engine road debri is eliminated also. Due you plan to provide the drawings of the components to duplicate or maybe sell a kit? Joe
Good Lordy above Joseph - I dearly appreciate all the encouragement and comments you have given me as I worked through this effort. The shots of the prototype add a heck of a lot to the discussion. Thank you! Stephen Nelson -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2016 8:36 AM To: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan Stephen, I am sorry I posted that photo as I didn't intend for it to side track your post. I just want to show and agree with AJL's comments that the window "completes" the rear, ESPECIALLY if one has a induction system that needs to be seen. Good to hear that your method of controlling the under hood and air induction temperature is working. Just hope the upper engine road debri is eliminated also. Due you plan to provide the drawings of the components to duplicate or maybe sell a kit? Joe _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
On Oct 1, 2016, at 8:11 PM, Stephen <steve@snclocks.com> wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17 mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating - somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph - around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture: [1]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7 wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F, with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second. Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And, before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wz jK _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Thank you Effie for the very kind comment. I fear it took a while to get all this figured out. Stephen Nelson -----Original Message----- From: Effie Richards [mailto:erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 8:58 PM To: Stephen <steve@snclocks.com> Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan You are a genius! I'm printing this for my husband and looking forward to your article in the Newsletter! Bravo! Sent from Effie's iPhone the links above.
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participants (6)
-
Asa Jay Laughton -
Effie Richards -
Joseph F. Byrd, Jr. -
Ken Green -
L GRAY -
Stephen