Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here?
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and “be done with it”.
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded.
The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why?
Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out
The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita.
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all
However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike
Mike: Thank you for the input. What’s prompting the discussion is that I just don’t like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don’t have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric “assist” in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the “suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the “speed pulley” on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks’ product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don’t think it’s too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It’s brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a “double-pass” unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain’t broke…. Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack
On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote:
Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
So what exactly are we talking about here?
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and “be done with it”.
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded.
The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why?
Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system.
Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system.
Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly.
So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
Cheers!
Mike
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and "be done with it".
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all
Mike: Thank you for the input. What's prompting the discussion is that I just don't like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don't have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric "assist" in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the "suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the "speed pulley" on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks' product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don't think it's too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It's brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a "double-pass" unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain't broke.... Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, [1]MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote: Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike
References 1. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com
Jack, Normal modern cars run much hotter than 200 degrees normally. 200 in a Pantera stuck in traffic on a hot day is something to celebrate! Mike Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2016, at 10:17, Jack Donahue <demongusta@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike: Thank you for the input. What’s prompting the discussion is that I just don’t like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don’t have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric “assist” in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the “suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the “speed pulley” on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks’ product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don’t think it’s too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It’s brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a “double-pass” unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain’t broke…. Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack
On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote:
Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
So what exactly are we talking about here?
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and “be done with it”.
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded.
The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why?
Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system.
Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system.
Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly.
So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
Cheers!
Mike
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and "be done with it".
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all
Jack, Normal modern cars run much hotter than 200 degrees normally. 200 in a Pantera stuck in traffic on a hot day is something to celebrate! Mike Sent from my iPhone On Aug 10, 2016, at 10:17, Jack Donahue <[1]demongusta@gmail.com> wrote: Mike: Thank you for the input. What's prompting the discussion is that I just don't like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don't have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric "assist" in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the "suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the "speed pulley" on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks' product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don't think it's too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It's brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a "double-pass" unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain't broke.... Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, [2]MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote: Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike
References 1. mailto:demongusta@gmail.com 2. mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com
Jack, Water has a higher heat capacity than glycol and water/glycol mixes, so theoretically the most efficient coolant is 100% water (or with Hyperkool, Water Wetter or some other product that further increases the heat capacity). The glycol is there for a) antifreeze protection and b) corrosion resistance. Julian ________________________________ From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jack Donahue <demongusta@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:17 AM To: Mike Drew Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Mike: Thank you for the input. What’s prompting the discussion is that I just don’t like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don’t have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric “assist” in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the “suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the “speed pulley” on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks’ product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don’t think it’s too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It’s brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a “double-pass” unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain’t broke…. Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack
On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote:
Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
So what exactly are we talking about here?
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and “be done with it”.
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded.
The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why?
Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system.
Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system.
Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly.
So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
Cheers!
Mike
On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew@aol.com wrote:
Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced
Jack, Water has a higher heat capacity than glycol and water/glycol mixes, so theoretically the most efficient coolant is 100% water (or with Hyperkool, Water Wetter or some other product that further increases the heat capacity). The glycol is there for a) antifreeze protection and b) corrosion resistance. Julian __________________________________________________________________ From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jack Donahue <demongusta@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:17 AM To: Mike Drew Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Mike: Thank you for the input. What's prompting the discussion is that I just don't like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don't have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric "assist" in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the "suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the "speed pulley" on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump. I was intrigued by Brassworks' product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don't think it's too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It's brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator? Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only. I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a "double-pass" unit - does "more passes"=better cooling? True - if it ain't broke.... Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data. Jack through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so,
it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is
perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his
car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early
ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking
about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
So what exactly are we talking about here?
The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) -
don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and "be done with it".
That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix
a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume
it's shrouded.
The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And
Why?
Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the
disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not
repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak
far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about
extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there.
You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your
radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road?
That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system.
Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost
assuredly air in the system.
Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock,
original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly.
So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
Cheers!
Mike
Follow up on my post of my Dennis Q / Ron Davis set up, I am not using side shrouds. I just ran SORC's 53 miles in the 105 class and had speeds to 140. I never caught the temperate reading even 200 . RPM's saw over 5,500 often and at times longer than I like. Also I finished 1st in the Loup 2 Loup 80 mph class. You can't trade me out of this radiator. I feel the cost to be money well spent. Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! ) From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: demongusta@gmail.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks. >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita. >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there. >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. Follow up on my post of my Dennis Q / Ron Davis set up, I am not using side shrouds. I just ran SORC's 53 miles in the 105 class and had speeds to 140. I never caught the temperate reading even 200 . RPM's saw over 5,500 often and at times longer than I like. Also I finished 1st in the Loup 2 Loup 80 mph class. You can't trade me out of this radiator. I feel the cost to be money well spent. Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! ) __________________________________________________________________ From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: demongusta@gmail.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks. >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita. >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there. >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [1]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
I have run the Fluidyne with no shrouds up to 200 MPH. At anything below 150 MPH ran at 180-190 degrees F. At 160 MPH we ran at 210F. At a 165MPH running average we ran at 220F. When we were radar clocked at 194 running down a Viper we never ran over the 230 mark but we didn¹t maintain that 200 MPH speed very long since we were only teched to run at 165 maximum. What does that prove? If you have the right gears and trimmed out with the right Aero, you can run real fast with a street engine and either radiator will do the job if installed correctly with the right water pump. Larry Stock On 8/16/16, 6:57 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of B Hower via DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com on behalf of detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Follow up on my post of my Dennis Q / Ron Davis set up, I am not using side shrouds. I just ran SORC's 53 miles in the 105 class and had speeds to 140. I never caught the temperate reading even 200 . RPM's saw over 5,500 often and at times longer than I like. Also I finished 1st in the Loup 2 Loup 80 mph class. You can't trade me out of this radiator. I feel the cost to be money well spent. Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! ) __________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: demongusta@gmail.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks. >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita. >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there. >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [1]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
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Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Larry, what temp thermostat were you running? Rob DuMoulin 904.476.8744 rob@dumoulins.net www.kbsi.co http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58 On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Larry Stock <larrys@panteraparts.com> wrote:
I have run the Fluidyne with no shrouds up to 200 MPH. At anything below 150 MPH ran at 180-190 degrees F. At 160 MPH we ran at 210F. At a 165MPH running average we ran at 220F. When we were radar clocked at 194 running down a Viper we never ran over the 230 mark but we didn¹t maintain that 200 MPH speed very long since we were only teched to run at 165 maximum. What does that prove? If you have the right gears and trimmed out with the right Aero, you can run real fast with a street engine and either radiator will do the job if installed correctly with the right water pump. Larry Stock
On 8/16/16, 6:57 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of B Hower via DeTomaso" <detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com on behalf of detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Follow up on my post of my Dennis Q / Ron Davis set up, I am not using side shrouds. I just ran SORC's 53 miles in the 105 class and had speeds to 140. I never caught the temperate reading even 200 . RPM's saw over 5,500 often and at times longer than I like. Also I finished 1st in the Loup 2 Loup 80 mph class. You can't trade me out of this radiator. I feel the cost to be money well spent. Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! ) __________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: demongusta@gmail.com; detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand. >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them. Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud. Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely. >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks. >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. So what exactly are we talking about here? >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita. >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded. >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why? >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there. >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system. Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system. Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly. So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. Cheers! Mike _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [1]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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_______________________________________________
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Larry, what temp thermostat were you running? Rob DuMoulin 904.476.8744 [1]rob@dumoulins.net [2]www.kbsi.co [3]http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58 On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Larry Stock <[4]larrys@panteraparts.com> wrote: I have run the Fluidyne with no shrouds up to 200 MPH. At anything below 150 MPH ran at 180-190 degrees F. At 160 MPH we ran at 210F.A At a 165MPH running average we ran at 220F. When we were radar clocked at 194 running down a Viper we never ran over the 230 mark but we didnA^1t maintain that 200 MPH speed very long since we were only teched to run at 165 maximum. What does that prove? If you have the right gears and trimmed out with the right Aero, you can run real fast with a street engine and either radiator will do the job if installed correctly with the right water pump. Larry Stock On 8/16/16, 6:57 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of B Hower via DeTomaso" <[5]detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com on behalf of [6]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> wrote: >A A Follow up on my post of my Dennis Q / Ron Davis set up, I am not using >A A side shrouds. I just ran SORC'sA 53 miles in the 105 class and had >A A speeds to 140. I never caught the temperate reading even 200 . RPM's >A A saw over 5,500 often and at times longer than I like. Also I finished >A A 1st in the Loup 2 Loup 80 mph class. You can't trade me out of this >A A radiator. I feel the cost to be money well spent. >A A Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be >A A ! ) >A A A ______________________________ ____________________________________ > >A A From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[7]detomaso@server.detomasolist. com> >A A To: [8]demongusta@gmail.com; [9]detomaso@server.detomasolist. com >A A Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:03 PM >A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma >A A A Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a >A A A Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a >A A A shroud is a necessity, which I understand. >A A A >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true. >A A A It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently.A Do >A A you >A A A have it in the stock position, with pusher fans?A If so, the car came >A A A from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped >A A A ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the >A A A radiator and not spill around the sides.A If you don't have those, >A A you >A A A definitely owe it to yourself to get them. >A A A Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans?A If so, >A A A it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible. >A A A Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is >A A perhaps >A A A something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with >A A an >A A A all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at >A A high >A A A speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough >A A due >A A A to the blockage formed by the shroud. >A A A Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his >A A A car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to >A A A this problem.A He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps >A A that >A A A blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and >A A A that fixed his problem completely. >A A A >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks. >A A A >>>Be very happy.A They have been known to leak, especially the early >A A A ones.A Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches >A A A the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes >A A it >A A A to leak.A As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation >A A both >A A A at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine. >A A A So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking >A A about >A A A changing it?A The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as >A A A the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc. >A A A So what exactly are we talking about here? >A A A >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - >A A A don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had >A A read >A A A from someone was just to get his radiator and abe done with ita. >A A A >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix >A A a >A A A $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and >A A A just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was). >A A A >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume >A A it's >A A A shrouded. >A A A >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt. >A A A >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And >A A A Why? >A A A >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter.A However, the >A A A disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so >A A for >A A A equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be >A A made >A A A larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back >A A much >A A A of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car. >A A A The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not >A A A repairable.A The discussion last week centered around a high-quality >A A A brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted >A A $600 >A A A to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it.A He took it >A A to >A A A an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250. >A A A When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak >A A far >A A A from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally >A A A without much trouble.A When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and >A A A springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<( >A A A > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about >A A A extra weight. I am familiar with the companyA - Brassworks - they >A A have >A A A been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had >A A mentioned >A A A Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will >A A A generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it >A A A will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all >A A A the experts - i know you are out there. >A A A >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine. >A A A However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your >A A radiator >A A A without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing >A A A it?A If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic >A A A response.A But if it's not leaking, what is your issue? >A A A Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? >A A A That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead >A A A of Cleveland), or air in the system. >A A A Overheating all the time, even when going down the road?A Almost >A A A assuredly air in the system. >A A A Neither condition requires a radiator change.A If you had a stock, >A A A original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had >A A separated >A A A from the core, for sure you would want to replace it.A As it is, IF >A A you >A A A even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue.A In fact, changing the >A A A radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you >A A A refill it you don't bleed it properly. >A A A So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion. >A A A Cheers! >A A A Mike >A A _______________________________________________ >A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >A A DeTomaso mailing list >A A [1][10]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >A A [2][11]http://server.detomasolist. com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) >A A use the links above. >A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any >A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the >A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive >A A or approve the archiving of list messages. > >References > >A A 1. mailto:[12]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >A A 2. [13]http://server.detomasolist. com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso >_______________________________________________ > > >Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes >DeTomaso mailing list >[14]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com >[15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso > >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use >the links above. > >Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any >message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. >They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or >approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [16]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. mailto:rob@dumoulins.net 2. http://www.kbsi.co/ 3. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58 4. mailto:larrys@panteraparts.com 5. mailto:detomaso-bounces@server.detomasolist.com 6. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:demongusta@gmail.com 9. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 12. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 14. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 16. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
participants (7)
-
B Hower -
Jack Donahue -
Julian Kift -
Larry Stock -
Mike Drew -
MikeLDrew＠aol.com
-
Rob Dumoulin