Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis
Although I agree online issues of the newsletter should be available, even the norm, I really prefer getting printed copies. I pass them along to a mechanic friend of mine. I know if I had to print them out myself I simply wouldn't do it. Thanks to the POCA board and leadership for helping to keep the club moving forward! Sincerely, Chris Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Effie Richards<mailto:erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com> Sent: 5/29/2016 9:44 PM To: fastgrandma<mailto:fastgrandma@aol.com> Cc: detomaso@server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis My husband, for one, does not "do" computer, which is why I become his voice! I would of course print for him, but what about when I'm not around any longer? Things happen... Sent from Effie's iPad
On May 29, 2016, at 7:19 PM, fastgrandma <fastgrandma@aol.com> wrote:
You have to realize that not everyone has a computer and some that do absolutely do not want their Newsletter online. The Newsletter has been sent as a pdf to the Eruopeans and members in Canada for some time now but even there, a couple want paper copies and that should be their absolute right since that is the one thing that the club does for its members: the publications!
At the Rally we heard from several who had various reasons for wanting printed publications only and it would be very wrong to deny that. Maybe those 'other' clubs might do that but that is a good reason to not belong to them.
Judy
-----Original Message----- From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: erichards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com>; marshallgsmith <marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis
I thought the newsletter was going to be online only (hence will be color for free) , while only the Profiles will on paper and mailed. No?
I don't see why anyone would not renew their membership-- with all the old publications online and an improved website the club has more to offer than ever.
Jim Oddie
On May 29, 2016, at 4:05 PM, marshallgsmith <[1]marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Now wait a minute Dick, what you write here is WAY too level-headed for this forum!
Who is this really??
All joking aside, I obtain multiple bids for every one of a 'number' of projects that I need to conduct every year. If I found a company that could save me $8,000 a year on a particular project, I would have felt like I won the lottery!
Sure, every once in a while the new company who submitted the lowest bid does not do as good of a job of the old one but when that happens, I go back to the next bid which sometimes was the same company I used previously and all is back to normal.
$8,000 a year is an awful lot of money just to stay with the company that you have and had comfort with.
The statement of adding color to the newsletter would of course cost a bit more money but when you consider that we would be saving $8,000 off the top, we have a touch more money to play with and the savings would still be very sizable.
Plus, if any car club newsletter in this country is worthy of several color pages, it absolutely would be Jack DeRyke's!! This club is and will be indebted to you forever Jack! Thanks for the wonderful work you do to keep our colorful jalopies on the road!!
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Dick Koch <[2]redcatman74@gmail.com> Date: 05/29/2016 9:57 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Ed Mendez <[3]edducati@mac.com> Cc: [4]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personal manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and
persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive, this club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money. We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail the newsletter, that can be printed by anyone that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one person. Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that,
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[5]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below.
On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[6]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
without notice.
False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first place.
return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven. Simply, use the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter
The presidents.
PROPOSED: $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund the $62.52 publication estimate per MS.
That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000 per year cheaper than the one we are currently using.
Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.
Carrying
853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year. Divide that into 100,000 means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements.
OPINION:
I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has proposed. Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing the actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for
False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact
very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of the club
This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and should not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern, preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline.
If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office.
Kind regards
(Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[1][11]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below. On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[2][12]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
A It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
A without notice. False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
A The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased A rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first
A return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven.A Simply, use A the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter presidents. A PROPOSED:A $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund
A publication estimate per MS. That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000 per year cheaper than the one we are currently using.
A Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.A Carrying A 853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year.A Divide that into 100,000 A means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
A OPINION:
A I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but A there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has A proposed.A Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing
A actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact there very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of the club This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and should not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern,
A (Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
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Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me. I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period the there list. list. personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personalA manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and their persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive, this club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money.A We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail the newsletter, that can be printed by anyoneA that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one person.A Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that, pointless. Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me.A I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period place.A The the $62.52 the bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements. the preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline. If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office. Kind regards the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5][15]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6][16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. [17]mailto:edducati@mac.com 2. [18]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 3. [19]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 5. [21]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [23]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________
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-----Original Message----- From: Effie Richards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com> To: marshallgsmith <marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Well said Marshall! Many Kudos to Jack DeRyke from me too! We love your work! Sent from Effie's iPad their pointless. list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [27]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [28]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net 2. mailto:redcatman74@gmail.com 3. mailto:edducati@mac.com 4. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 5. mailto:edducati@mac.com 6. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 7. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 9. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 11. mailto:edducati@mac.com 12. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 13. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 15. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 17. mailto:edducati@mac.com? 18. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com? 19. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 21. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 23. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 25. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 27. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 28. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
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On May 29, 2016, at 7:19 PM, fastgrandma <fastgrandma@aol.com> wrote:
You have to realize that not everyone has a computer and some that do absolutely do not want their Newsletter online. The Newsletter has been sent as a pdf to the Eruopeans and members in Canada for some time now but even there, a couple want paper copies and that should be their absolute right since that is the one thing that the club does for its members: the publications!
At the Rally we heard from several who had various reasons for wanting printed publications only and it would be very wrong to deny
Although I agree online issues of the newsletter should be available, even the norm, I really prefer getting printed copies. I pass them along to a mechanic friend of mine. I know if I had to print them out myself I simply wouldn't do it. Thanks to the POCA board and leadership for helping to keep the club moving forward! Sincerely, Chris Sent from my Windows Phone __________________________________________________________________ From: [1]Effie Richards Sent: 5/29/2016 9:44 PM To: [2]fastgrandma Cc: [3]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis My husband, for one, does not "do" computer, which is why I become his voice! I would of course print for him, but what about when I'm not around any longer? Things happen... Sent from Effie's iPad that. Maybe those 'other' clubs might do that but that is a good reason to not belong to them.
Judy
-----Original Message----- From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: erichards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com>; marshallgsmith
Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis
I thought the newsletter was going to be online only (hence will be color for free) , while only the Profiles will on paper and mailed. No?
I don't see why anyone would not renew their membership-- with all
old publications online and an improved website the club has more to offer than ever.
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message----- From: Effie Richards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com> To: marshallgsmith <marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Well said Marshall! Many Kudos to Jack DeRyke from me too! We love your work! Sent from Effie's iPad
On May 29, 2016, at 4:05 PM, marshallgsmith <[1]marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Now wait a minute Dick, what you write here is WAY too level-headed for this forum!
Who is this really??
All joking aside, I obtain multiple bids for every one of a 'number' of projects that I need to conduct every year. If I found a company
could save me $8,000 a year on a particular project, I would have felt like I won the lottery!
Sure, every once in a while the new company who submitted the lowest bid does not do as good of a job of the old one but when that happens, I go back to the next bid which sometimes was the same company I used previously and all is back to normal.
$8,000 a year is an awful lot of money just to stay with the company that you have and had comfort with.
The statement of adding color to the newsletter would of course cost a bit more money but when you consider that we would be saving $8,000 off the top, we have a touch more money to play with and the savings would still be very sizable.
Plus, if any car club newsletter in this country is worthy of several color pages, it absolutely would be Jack DeRyke's!! This club is and will be indebted to you forever Jack! Thanks for the wonderful work you do to keep our colorful jalopies on the road!!
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Dick Koch <[2]redcatman74@gmail.com> Date: 05/29/2016 9:57 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Ed Mendez <[3]edducati@mac.com> Cc: [4]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personal manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and their persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive,
club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money. We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[5]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below.
On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[6]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
newsletter, that can be printed by anyone that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one person. Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that, pointless. Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me. I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period
without notice.
False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first place.
return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven. Simply, use the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter
The presidents.
PROPOSED: $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund the $62.52 publication estimate per MS.
That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000
cheaper than the one we are currently using.
Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.
Carrying
853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year. Divide that into 100,000 means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements.
OPINION:
I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has proposed. Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing the actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for
False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact
year the there
very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of
club
This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and
not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern, preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline.
If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office.
Kind regards
(Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very
should list. list. personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personalA manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and their persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive, this club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money.A We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail
newsletter, that can be printed by anyoneA that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[1][11]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below. On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[2][12]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
A It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
A without notice. False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
A The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased A rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first
A return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven.A Simply, use A the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter presidents. A PROPOSED:A $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund
A publication estimate per MS. That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000 per year cheaper than the one we are currently using.
A Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.A Carrying A 853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year.A Divide that into 100,000 A means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
A OPINION:
A I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but A there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has A proposed.A Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing
A actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact there very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of the club This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and should not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern,
A (Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
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Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that, pointless. Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me.A I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period place.A The the $62.52 the bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements. the preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline. If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office. Kind regards the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5][15]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6][16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. [17]mailto:edducati@mac.com 2. [18]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 3. [19]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 5. [21]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [23]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________
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References
1. [4]mailto:marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net 2. [5]mailto:redcatman74@gmail.com 3. [6]mailto:edducati@mac.com 4. [7]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 5. [8]mailto:edducati@mac.com 6. [9]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 7. [10]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 9. [12]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 11. [14]mailto:edducati@mac.com 12. [15]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 13. [16]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 14. [17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 15. [18]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. [19]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 17. [20]mailto:edducati@mac.com? 18. [21]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com? 19. [22]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 20. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 21. [24]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 22. [25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 23. [26]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. [27]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 25. [28]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 27. [30]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 28. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [32]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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<marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> the that this the per the the person.A the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. mailto:erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com 2. mailto:fastgrandma@aol.com 3. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. mailto:marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net 5. mailto:redcatman74@gmail.com 6. mailto:edducati@mac.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:edducati@mac.com 9. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 10. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 12. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 14. mailto:edducati@mac.com 15. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 16. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 18. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 19. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 20. mailto:edducati@mac.com? 21. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com? 22. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 24. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 25. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 26. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 28. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 30. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 32. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
Christopher, we polled our Chapter members and only found one member that wanted the newsletter by email. I'm a member of a Mustang Club also. They distribute a printed copy of their newsletter at the monthly meeting. If you don't attend the monthly general meeting, it is posted to their website a month later. You can then read it on-line or download it and print it yourself. I enjoy the hard copy I get at the general meeting and read it pretty much front to back. But if I miss the meeting, I never print out the PDF. Could I? Yes.....do I? No. Sounds like maybe we're both old school, but our survey of members showed we have lots of old school members. Scott
On May 30, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball@msn.com> wrote:
Although I agree online issues of the newsletter should be available, even the norm, I really prefer getting printed copies. I pass them along to a mechanic friend of mine. I know if I had to print them out myself I simply wouldn't do it. Thanks to the POCA board and leadership for helping to keep the club moving forward! Sincerely, Chris Sent from my Windows Phone __________________________________________________________________
From: [1]Effie Richards Sent: 5/29/2016 9:44 PM To: [2]fastgrandma Cc: [3]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis
On May 29, 2016, at 7:19 PM, fastgrandma <fastgrandma@aol.com> wrote:
You have to realize that not everyone has a computer and some that do absolutely do not want their Newsletter online. The Newsletter has been sent as a pdf to the Eruopeans and members in Canada for some time now but even there, a couple want paper copies and that should be their absolute right since that is the one thing that the club does for its members: the publications!
At the Rally we heard from several who had various reasons for wanting printed publications only and it would be very wrong to deny
My husband, for one, does not "do" computer, which is why I become his voice! I would of course print for him, but what about when I'm not around any longer? Things happen... Sent from Effie's iPad that. Maybe those 'other' clubs might do that but that is a good reason to not belong to them.
Judy
-----Original Message----- From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> To: erichards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com>; marshallgsmith
Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis
I thought the newsletter was going to be online only (hence will be color for free) , while only the Profiles will on paper and mailed. No?
I don't see why anyone would not renew their membership-- with all
old publications online and an improved website the club has more to offer than ever.
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message----- From: Effie Richards <erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com> To: marshallgsmith <marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> Cc: detomaso <detomaso@server.detomasolist.com> Sent: Sun, May 29, 2016 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Well said Marshall! Many Kudos to Jack DeRyke from me too! We love your work! Sent from Effie's iPad
On May 29, 2016, at 4:05 PM, marshallgsmith <[1]marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Now wait a minute Dick, what you write here is WAY too level-headed for this forum!
Who is this really??
All joking aside, I obtain multiple bids for every one of a 'number' of projects that I need to conduct every year. If I found a company
could save me $8,000 a year on a particular project, I would have felt like I won the lottery!
Sure, every once in a while the new company who submitted the lowest bid does not do as good of a job of the old one but when that happens, I go back to the next bid which sometimes was the same company I used previously and all is back to normal.
$8,000 a year is an awful lot of money just to stay with the company that you have and had comfort with.
The statement of adding color to the newsletter would of course cost a bit more money but when you consider that we would be saving $8,000 off the top, we have a touch more money to play with and the savings would still be very sizable.
Plus, if any car club newsletter in this country is worthy of several color pages, it absolutely would be Jack DeRyke's!! This club is and will be indebted to you forever Jack! Thanks for the wonderful work you do to keep our colorful jalopies on the road!!
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Dick Koch <[2]redcatman74@gmail.com> Date: 05/29/2016 9:57 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Ed Mendez <[3]edducati@mac.com> Cc: [4]detomaso@server.detomasolist.com Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Membership Dues Analysis Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personal manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and their persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive,
club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money. We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[5]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below.
On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[6]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
newsletter, that can be printed by anyone that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one person. Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that, pointless. Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me. I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period
without notice.
False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first place.
return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven. Simply, use the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter
The presidents.
PROPOSED: $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund the $62.52 publication estimate per MS.
That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000
cheaper than the one we are currently using.
Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.
Carrying
853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year. Divide that into 100,000 means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements.
OPINION:
I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has proposed. Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing the actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for
False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact
year the there
very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of
club
This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and
not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern, preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline.
If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office.
Kind regards
(Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. Ed, thanks for the clarification of the misinformation and non-productive comments that have been made in recent weeks, many very
should list. list. personal and vindictive, and quite frankly detrimental to the club. It is good to have different points of view on club business. But to present one's point of view in a negative and personalA manner, does nothing but diminish that person's potentially valued point, and their persona in the eyes of others. From some of the comments made, it appears obvious to me that many of the detractors do not have much experience in running a business. And make no mistake POCA is a business, albeit a non-profit one. To thrive, this club must not stand on it's laurels, but continue to enhance it's value add to it's customers. As far as looking at the printer used for the production of the newsletter, for the board to not look for less expensive options, as with any other expense, with better offerings, is irresponsible. I can only wonder what is going on behind the scenes that would have folks want to stay with a service provider that is noncompetitive and provides less for much more money.A We have enough cronyism in our government. Hopefully that is not the case here, and there has been a reason for keeping a more expensive service that provides less. I won't bother to comment on the absurdity of continuing to mail
newsletter, that can be printed by anyoneA that is not to lazy to take 3 minutes to print it, since that may be construed as negative. As regards to a point Ed stated, the club is not run by one
On May 29, 2016 2:12 AM, "Ed Mendez" <[1][11]edducati@mac.com> wrote: See below. On 28/05/2016, at 11:53, Rod Kunishige <[2][12]rkunishige@hotmail.com> wrote:
A It is interesting that this President changed a generous grace
A without notice. False it's in the bylaws and has been for some time now. Warning at 30 days, at 60 days the membership expires, check the Fiat club, Ferrari club, Porsche club, they all have similar rules.
A The so-called "shortfall" is created in part by the $10 increased A rebate to the chapters that was NOT requested in the first
A return of this sum places the club at nearly breakeven.A Simply, use A the money to pay for our publication costs. False - check your facts, the rebate was welcome by the majority chapter presidents. A PROPOSED:A $75 dues less $15 to chapters yields $60 to fund
A publication estimate per MS. That is true, and that is why we are trying to get competitive quotes for printing to try and save money. MS found a printer that is $8000 per year cheaper than the one we are currently using.
A Our $100,000 reserve would easily fund the $2.52 per year.A Carrying A 853 members at $2.52 is $2,149.56 per year.A Divide that into 100,000 A means funding covers 46.5 YEARS. False - check your facts, most non profits have two year reserve in
A OPINION:
A I do recognize that Mr. Shortt controls the Board by a 5 to 4 vote but A there I think that this is a better solution than what MS has A proposed.A Finally, kudos goes to him for at least publishing
A actions he intends to take so we may make positive suggestions for False, if you look at the meeting minutes of the BOD, most things we have coated on have been either unanimous vote or close to it, in fact there very few times it was 5-4. Again we vote in the best interest of the club This forum is supposed to be about DeTomaso, hence the name; and should not be used for POCA bashing, it really makes us all look bad. If you have an issue talk with someone about your concern,
A (Information taken from the Presidents Blog.) _______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [3][13]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [4][14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
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Each person on the board has a say, with a majority required to decide on every issue. Pointing ones frustration at one person is just that, pointless. Items approved by the board, were "sold" to the board by a member of the board to the other members of the board, showing how approving that item would benefit the club member's experience, with the underlying financial implications outlined that would strengthen the clubs long term financial health. Constructive criticism is just that: criticism presented in a constructive manner, with negative comments of a personal nature irrelevant and therefore non-constructive. I for one think the new POCA board is doing a fantastic job, and to think they are doing their job for free. What a deal... By the way, if someone feels they want to get personal with their comments, take it out on me.A I deserve it for letting 6831 sit idle with a blown header gasket for years. Peace, fellow "cat" owners. Dick Koch - Atlanta Still one of the few remaining original Pantera owners still lucky enough to be on the sunny side of the grass. period place.A The the $62.52 the bank, the Ferrari and Porsche clubs have $1,000,000 each in reserve. You can google there income statements. the preferably your chapter president, they are your representative as in any organization. It's very easy to simply pick up the phone instead of using this email list as a podium for your disdain of MS. It's obvious, we get it. Please take it offline. If you think you can do a better job than volunteer as I did, and many others before me, and run for office. Kind regards the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [5][15]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [6][16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. References 1. [17]mailto:edducati@mac.com 2. [18]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 3. [19]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 5. [21]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 6. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list [23]DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above. Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages. _______________________________________________
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1. [4]mailto:marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net 2. [5]mailto:redcatman74@gmail.com 3. [6]mailto:edducati@mac.com 4. [7]mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 5. [8]mailto:edducati@mac.com 6. [9]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 7. [10]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 9. [12]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 10. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 11. [14]mailto:edducati@mac.com 12. [15]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 13. [16]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 14. [17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 15. [18]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 16. [19]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 17. [20]mailto:edducati@mac.com? 18. [21]mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com? 19. [22]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 20. [23]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 21. [24]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 22. [25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 23. [26]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 24. [27]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 25. [28]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 26. [29]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 27. [30]mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 28. [31]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
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1. mailto:erichards@zogob.sdcoxmail.com 2. mailto:fastgrandma@aol.com 3. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 4. mailto:marshallgsmith@sbcglobal.net 5. mailto:redcatman74@gmail.com 6. mailto:edducati@mac.com 7. mailto:detomaso@server.detomasolist.com 8. mailto:edducati@mac.com 9. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 10. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 12. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 14. mailto:edducati@mac.com 15. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com 16. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 18. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 19. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 20. mailto:edducati@mac.com? 21. mailto:rkunishige@hotmail.com? 22. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 23. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 24. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com? 25. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 26. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 27. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 28. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 29. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 30. mailto:DeTomaso@server.detomasolist.com 31. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso 32. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso _______________________________________________
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participants (2)
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Christopher Kimball -
scottcouchman＠yahoo.com